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  1. #256
    Mighty Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOn View Post
    There is just a troubling general trend with the infantilization of pop culture, where pretty much everything popular these days is some updated version of something that people enjoyed as kids, whether that be Star Wars, Marvel, Transformers, or what have you. And as much as filmmakers hate pandering to the hardcore fanboys, the studios and their parent companies are keen to find ways to hook them, because they know that a crazed man child that will shell out obscene amounts of money for merchandise is the equivalent of dozens of normal moviegoers who will just buy a ticket and nothing more. And so if that means throwing your actors and directors under the bus to satisfy the wishes of irrational fans, then that's what they will do, basic human decency be damned.

    And while the studios are making money hand over fist with honestly minimal effort putting out these copy pasta superhero and sci-fi movies, I do feel like that we need something more substantial in our entertainment. Marvel and Star Wars are basically like the cinematic equivalent of junk food, and while we might enjoy watching them, they are fundamentally unsatisfying and will always leave us with a sick feeling if we consume too much. The delusion for many fans is that this is somehow not an inherent property of these types of films, but rather something that can be fixed if only they would tweak a few details here and there, but if you just take a step back and think about it, that will never work. From the beginning, Star Wars has been a blatantly commercial vehicle with a recycled plot, wooden characters, and some of the most ridiculous dialogue ever committed to screen. We may have been blind to that as kids, but now that we realize this as adults it does kind of make our childhood memories seem a bit manufactured and inauthentic, and the fact that the new films constantly remind us of the fundamentally corporate nature of the franchise is just troubling to us. But there just isn't a version of the sequel trilogy that will put the cat back in the bag and restore the magic of the originals, since that was always just an illusion all along.
    You're aware that's been the criticism of popular culture ever since the term was a thing right?

  2. #257
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CJStriker View Post
    Indeed I am Very Happy that Rise of Skywalker hit the Billion dollar Club as well, Loved the Movie, deserves it!

    It gets more interesting to when you do the Movie Math as well to put some things in a Real Perspective for this and Disney Star Wars.


    Have not found Grace Randolph to be a very credible source of information.
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  3. #258
    Astonishing Member PwrdOn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian View Post
    You're aware that's been the criticism of popular culture ever since the term was a thing right?
    Yeah, I definitely channeled some of that cranky old fart energy there. I mean, I don't have the most sophisticated tastes myself and I definitely watch a lot more blockbuster action movies than I do cerebral indie fare, but I also feel like that's a result of the movie industry having gotten so big and so commercialized that the franchises basically suck up all the oxygen and don't make any room for anything else to exist. Even with someone like Scorsese who tried to cast his films in opposition to Marvel, if we're being honest the Irishman was a pretty cookie cutter gangster movie the likes of which we've seen plenty of times from him and others before, and which has its own loyal audience that studios can bank on.

    And maybe I'm wrong about this, but I get a distinct sense that actors and directors absolutely loathe making these big budget franchise films, and try to find whatever ways they can to "subvert expectations," as it were, within the limited creative confines they are given. While I'm sure there are some filmmakers out there who are basically ascended fanboys have absolute respect for the source material and will prioritize maintaining the spirit of the franchise over everything else, I would imagine that it's a rather shallow pool of talented people who got into filmmaking just to make unimaginative recreations of movies they enjoyed as children. I don't think a Joss Whedon directed Star Wars trilogy would be good for anyone.

  4. #259

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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOn View Post
    Yeah, I definitely channeled some of that cranky old fart energy there. I mean, I don't have the most sophisticated tastes myself and I definitely watch a lot more blockbuster action movies than I do cerebral indie fare, but I also feel like that's a result of the movie industry having gotten so big and so commercialized that the franchises basically suck up all the oxygen and don't make any room for anything else to exist. Even with someone like Scorsese who tried to cast his films in opposition to Marvel, if we're being honest the Irishman was a pretty cookie cutter gangster movie the likes of which we've seen plenty of times from him and others before, and which has its own loyal audience that studios can bank on.

    And maybe I'm wrong about this, but I get a distinct sense that actors and directors absolutely loathe making these big budget franchise films, and try to find whatever ways they can to "subvert expectations," as it were, within the limited creative confines they are given. While I'm sure there are some filmmakers out there who are basically ascended fanboys have absolute respect for the source material and will prioritize maintaining the spirit of the franchise over everything else, I would imagine that it's a rather shallow pool of talented people who got into filmmaking just to make unimaginative recreations of movies they enjoyed as children. I don't think a Joss Whedon directed Star Wars trilogy would be good for anyone.
    Honestly I think Hollywood in general has an unhealthy obsession with "nuance" and Grey/Gray morality. Iconconcalsism is once you break it down is really just nihilism and cynicism rolled into one. One sentence I think is really dumb is. "It destroys Nostalgia and that's why it's great." One of the dumbest things anyone has ever written or said IMO.

  5. #260
    Astonishing Member PwrdOn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MASTER-OF-SUPRISE View Post
    Honestly I think Hollywood in general has an unhealthy obsession with "nuance" and Grey/Gray morality. Iconconcalsism is once you break it down is really just nihilism and cynicism rolled into one. One sentence I think is really dumb is. "It destroys Nostalgia and that's why it's great." One of the dumbest things anyone has ever written or said IMO.
    Maybe, but that's just kind of the nature of filmmaking and creative pursuits in general. Artists are always looking for ways to buck trends and subvert expectations, I don't think anyone really gets into the craft in order to make cookie cutter action movies, those are just to pay the bills so that they can devote their time and energy to their passion projects. If you were a studio head and some director were to say that their dream project was just to make a new Star Wars trilogy exactly following the spirit of the original and adding absolutely nothing new, would you really want to hire that person?

    Ironically, the original Star Wars was actually quite a subversive film in its own day, because it went against the prevailing trend of these dark and cerebral sci-fi films and presented an unironic good vs. evil story, which people really hadn't seen since the 1940s. And in a way the MCU followed that same script by embracing the colorful and over the top nature of the source material instead of trying to go for the grim and gritty realism that had been the trend in previous superhero films. But now that we've sort of re-established the earnest and optimistic action film as the baseline, it's incumbent on filmmakers to come along and break that mold again.

  6. #261

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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOn View Post
    Maybe, but that's just kind of the nature of filmmaking and creative pursuits in general. Artists are always looking for ways to buck trends and subvert expectations, I don't think anyone really gets into the craft in order to make cookie cutter action movies, those are just to pay the bills so that they can devote their time and energy to their passion projects. If you were a studio head and some director were to say that their dream project was just to make a new Star Wars trilogy exactly following the spirit of the original and adding absolutely nothing new, would you really want to hire that person?

    Ironically, the original Star Wars was actually quite a subversive film in its own day, because it went against the prevailing trend of these dark and cerebral sci-fi films and presented an unironic good vs. evil story, which people really hadn't seen since the 1940s. And in a way the MCU followed that same script by embracing the colorful and over the top nature of the source material instead of trying to go for the grim and gritty realism that had been the trend in previous superhero films. But now that we've sort of re-established the earnest and optimistic action film as the baseline, it's incumbent on filmmakers to come along and break that mold again.
    I feel like there are ways to subvert expectations without needing to deconstruct. There's plenty of ways to add new stuff. Look at the Mandalorian. I know it's not exactly a fair comparison but it never seems like it goes out of it's way to deconstruct things and tell you why something is ridiculous. I don't go to a Godzilla movie to tell me why Godzilla movies are silly. I go because I want to see a Godzilla movie.

    You can add new things without tearing down the old. If a movie has to destroy nostalgia to be great. Then it's not really great.

  7. #262
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MASTER-OF-SUPRISE View Post
    I feel like there are ways to subvert expectations without needing to deconstruct. There's plenty of ways to add new stuff. Look at the Mandalorian. I know it's not exactly a fair comparison but it never seems like it goes out of it's way to deconstruct things and tell you why something is ridiculous. I don't go to a Godzilla movie to tell me why Godzilla movies are silly. I go because I want to see a Godzilla movie.

    You can add new things without tearing down the old. If a movie has to destroy nostalgia to be great. Then it's not really great.
    Is it always a bad thing? Case in point with Star Trek, the old show did a lot Kirk and his tendency to throw out the rule book when he thought it served the greater good, but then Wrath of Khan (considered one of the series' best movies) showed the lasting consequences of one such maverick decision, not to mention deconstructing Kirk's cowboy behavior in general.
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  8. #263

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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Is it always a bad thing? Case in point with Star Trek, the old show did a lot Kirk and his tendency to throw out the rule book when he thought it served the greater good, but then Wrath of Khan (considered one of the series' best movies) showed the lasting consequences of one such maverick decision, not to mention deconstructing Kirk's cowboy behavior in general.
    Is it always bad? No of course not. However deconstructions themselves are very flawed. They need a good reconstruction. I haven't really seen wrath of Khan. So I can't comment much on that. Let's take KOTOR 2 The Sith Lords. Obviously the game has a huge advantage over the movie.

    So the comparison isn't completely fair. After all you can stretch the time a lot more with an RPG game. I don't know who else has played the game. So for those who don't know KOTOR 2 does in fact have a deconstructionist. Two of them in fact with the characters Kriea and Atton Rand. Oh boy do they love to deconstruct thing.

    However these deconstruction clearly are shown to have their own biases. I think Rian Johnson was trying to make the movie like that but his reconstructions were shoddy at best IMO. One thing I've noticed about the sequel trilogy is that they tend to overcorrect.

  9. #264
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MASTER-OF-SUPRISE View Post
    Is it always bad? No of course not. However deconstructions themselves are very flawed. They need a good reconstruction. I haven't really seen wrath of Khan. So I can't comment much on that. Let's take KOTOR 2 The Sith Lords. Obviously the game has a huge advantage over the movie.

    So the comparison isn't completely fair. After all you can stretch the time a lot more with an RPG game. I don't know who else has played the game. So for those who don't know KOTOR 2 does in fact have a deconstructionist. Two of them in fact with the characters Kriea and Atton Rand. Oh boy do they love to deconstruct thing.

    However these deconstruction clearly are shown to have their own biases. I think Rian Johnson was trying to make the movie like that but his reconstructions were shoddy at best IMO. One thing I've noticed about the sequel trilogy is that they tend to overcorrect.
    Haven't played the game, so I can't say that I really follow all that.
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
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  10. #265

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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Haven't played the game, so I can't say that I really follow all that.
    That's fair I was just trying to find a comparison with something I was familiar with. Though I do think Rian Johnson tried to make Luke like Kreia in TLJ.

  11. #266
    BANNED Beaddle's Avatar
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    It just crossed 500m in the USA. The USA legs are strong with is usual for star wars and the only way it could do a weak billion. this is now dust.

  12. #267
    Mighty Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post
    It just crossed 500m in the USA. The USA legs are strong with is usual for star wars and the only way it could do a weak billion. this is now dust.
    Why can't you just admit you were wrong with your box office prediction rather than attempting to move the goal posts yet again with a "weak" billion?

  13. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian View Post
    Why can't you just admit you were wrong with your box office prediction rather than attempting to move the goal posts yet again with a "weak" billion?
    Exactly.

    I'm not sure why people chose to die on that hill (i.e it won't reach a billion hill).

    It's Star Wars, it will always make money.
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  14. #269
    BANNED Beaddle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    Exactly.

    I'm not sure why people chose to die on that hill (i.e it won't reach a billion hill).

    It's Star Wars, it will always make money.
    yes star wars will always make money, its not just making the kind of money Disney wants.

    Quote Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian View Post
    Why can't you just admit you were wrong with your box office prediction rather than attempting to move the goal posts yet again with a "weak" billion?
    I was not wrong. I said from the 346 million opening it was barely going to make a billion but when I saw how the legs were holding in the usa, I said it will make a billion though still a big disappointment and not just because it won't pass last Jedi.

  15. #270
    Mighty Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post
    yes star wars will always make money, its not just making the kind of money Disney wants.



    I was not wrong. I said from the 346 million opening it was barely going to make a billion but when I saw how the legs were holding in the usa, I said it will make a billion though still a big disappointment and not just because it won't pass last Jedi.
    Were you at a recent share holders meeting, or close friends with Bob Iger? If the answer is no then I'm not really sure you're all that qualified to speak about what Disney wanted the film to make.

    To be clear, I've really disliked the sequel trilogy and I haven't even gone to see the last installment, but I'm also not foolish to believe that my own personal tastes speak for the general audience which seems to have generally enjoyed all three movies. Also to be clear, the bold part? That's called moving goal posts...and it's generally a sign that the argument you're making is incorrect if you find that you have to do it.
    Last edited by thwhtGuardian; 01-27-2020 at 09:35 AM.

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