Do writers hate Hank Pym Ant-Man?

[scribbleMind]

It's a fascinating thread, which has wavered from "Do writer's hate Hank Pym" to basically portraying everyone's thoughts on redemption. It's not unlike people arguing whether prison should be for reform or for punishment. It's also fascinating that many people in general accept villains turning good, and ride with that, but can't get past a Hank screwing up and trying to be a hero again. That's really the thing of it at the end. This conversation is far more about the personal belief systems of the commenters, and those belief systems rarely change. I, personally, think that there's some hypocrisy. Magneto can commit extreme acts of terrorism and decide to join the X-Men the next day and no one really bats an eye. I think, objectively, if you believe slapping your wife in the middle of a mental breakdown is worse than putting a bunch of innocent humans in danger of being murdered, to the point where you can't hate Magneto with the same vigor when he's palling around with his new best friends X-Men, that has very little to do with what's on the pages of a comic book. People really liked heroic Doom. People really like heroic Namor. Namor keeps drowning people, and no one really has a problem with him showing up to work the next day like, "I'm a hero now. Yesterday? Yesterday I just didn't take my meds." Namor drowns people, or recently forces big lifestyle changes on them, he sits on his thrown after and more often than not ignores the consequences of his actions. Hank did something wrong, acknowledged it, and made the effort to set things right an number of times. Thus, we come down to my own personal belief, which is that the effort matters, perhaps even more than the act itself.

Btw, this is not a call to arms against Magneto or Namor, I greatly enjoy both of these characters myself. Because it's fiction.

As for Ultron, Hank will be trying to redeem himself for that forever, but that's pretty much the average relationship between a hero and his or her primary villain, as was mentioned above.

Do writers hate Hank Pym? Honestly, I think it's mostly indifference. People don't know how long they're going to keep getting these Marvel gigs, they don't know how long they're books are going to be, so they want to use their favorites while they can if at all possible. All the people that like Pym have already written him, and the one thing Pymtron specifically has going for him is that it's easier to incorporate a villain into a story than a hero. I think there's an argument to be made that Remender had it out for Pym. There's an argument to be made that Gerry Duggan doesn't like Pym (Oh, I know he said he does, but is there anything more disrespectful than having a characters soul get eaten? Kill your darlings is one thing but COME ON! That's said, could have been the play to remove him from Pymtron and Pymtron's actions). I think editors just don't know what to do with Hank, so they let writers do whatever.

[Michael Watkins]

It's a fascinating thread, which has wavered from "Do writer's hate Hank Pym" to basically portraying everyone's thoughts on redemption. It's not unlike people arguing whether prison should be for reform or for punishment. It's also fascinating that many people in general accept villains turning good, and ride with that, but can't get past a Hank screwing up and trying to be a hero again. That's really the thing of it at the end. This conversation is far more about the personal belief systems of the commenters, and those belief systems rarely change. I, personally, think that there's some hypocrisy. Magneto can commit extreme acts of terrorism and decide to join the X-Men the next day and no one really bats an eye.

said no one who has ever read an x-book before. not sure it's relevant to the conversation either. because the mutants tend to stick together because they are mutants. they didn't appoint themselves the police of the world like the Avengers did. they should be held to a higher standard. yet they let a bipolar individual who refuses treatment and has caused harm to his co-workers keep his position on the team. i can show you plenty of examples of Magneto being met with distrust as an X-Man. but no one batted an eye when Pym joined the Avengers West Coast branch. and him stepping back into the Yellowjacket was treated as something perfectly normal and not at all insensitive towards his ex-wife (even though she thought it was creepy).

[Michael Watkins]

Why do we keep focusing on Ultron and the slap?

what else is there to focus on? his arrogance in thinking that a video game room would "cure" his mental illness? the failed Avengers A.I run? him being the least interesting of the founding avengers?

[scribbleMind]

said no one who has ever read an x-book before. not sure it's relevant to the conversation either. because the mutants tend to stick together because they are mutants. they didn't appoint themselves the police of the world like the Avengers did. they should be held to a higher standard. yet they let a bipolar individual who refuses treatment and has caused harm to his co-workers keep his position on the team. i can show you plenty of examples of Magneto being met with distrust as an X-Man. but no one batted an eye when Pym joined the Avengers West Coast branch. and him stepping back into the Yellowjacket was treated as something perfectly normal and not at all insensitive towards his ex-wife (even though she thought it was creepy).

When I said no one, I was referring to readers. Furthermore, it's hardly a topic worth defending, although you can if you're feeling attacked. It happens all the time. I love Vegeta, Vegeta was a terrible person, wrecked an entire planet. Yet here I am still rooting for Vegeta. Villains that are on the road to redemption get off easy by consumers. It's just the way it is.

[Michael Watkins]

When I said no one, I was referring to readers. Furthermore, it's hardly a topic worth defending, although you can if you're feeling attacked. It happens all the time. I love Vegeta, Vegeta was a terrible person, wrecked an entire planet. Yet here I am still rooting for Vegeta. Villains that are on the road to redemption get off easy by consumers. It's just the way it is.

i'm not interested in Magneto's redemption. i'm pointing out how it's not a 1x1 comparison with someone like Henry Pym. the X-Men would accept Pym without question if he were a mutant because he's a mutant.

[scribbleMind]

I'm having trouble seeing how your point has anything to do with mine. You keep talking about Magneto's acceptance by mutants, and I'm primarily talking about Magneto's acceptance by readers. If your argument is that readers accept Magento's turn towards heroism/anti-heroism in the face of all he's done because the X-Men do, I can understand that. I think there's psychological precedence for that, although naturally there are examples of just that sort of thing going horribly wrong. Otherwise, you probably missed my point, and that's probably my fault, but I really don't care enough to go into it further.

[Alpha to Omega]

said no one who has ever read an x-book before. not sure it's relevant to the conversation either. because the mutants tend to stick together because they are mutants. they didn't appoint themselves the police of the world like the Avengers did. they should be held to a higher standard. yet they let a bipolar individual who refuses treatment and has caused harm to his co-workers keep his position on the team. i can show you plenty of examples of Magneto being met with distrust as an X-Man. but no one batted an eye when Pym joined the Avengers West Coast branch. and him stepping back into the Yellowjacket was treated as something perfectly normal and not at all insensitive towards his ex-wife (even though she thought it was creepy).

The X-Men are currently buddies with Gorgon, a man who kidnapped a child, killed him and fed his body to pigs just to lure Wolverine into a trap in his first appearance. Most X-Men readers seem perfectly fine with this.

[Tony Stark]

The X-Men are currently buddies with Gorgon, a man who kidnapped a child, killed him and fed his body to pigs just to lure Wolverine into a trap in his first appearance. Most X-Men readers seem perfectly fine with this.

Wow. That’s messed up. Also thanks for dropping info on The Gorgon. I’ve been wondering what he’s been up too.

[dreamglide]

It's been rather enlightening seeing how other readers perceive Hank Pym.

I do think, given the cultural focus on mental health awareness over the past couple of years, that it's surprising they haven't played up that angle more with Hank Pym. I know they talked about it in Avengers A.I, but I'm not sure if it's been brought up much in regards to him since.

Then again, there's other characters they could use to highlight mental health with, including his own daughter, so I'm not sure what broad niche the character would be used to fill.

[chamber-music]

What I find amazing about this thread is the number of people treating the work of creators as if it were a person. Hank Pym isn't an abuser, or anything else. It's a character.

The better question is why writers have so often focused on this change made to the character after nearly 30 years of publication, over 30 years ago. My suspicion is that Pym didn't have as firmly grounded an origin as characters like Spider-Man or Captain America. Yes, we know the history, but what the character was about was retrofitted several times.

It is a little weird that there is so many posts for a character some posters have said they don't find interesting or like. I guess the character triggers some people or something.

Anyway Pym's background has never really had much exploration.

A non-canon Hank Pym Ant-Man book and Age of Ultron tie in are some of the few stories that actually even bothered looking into Pym's background in the last twenty years.

Pym really shouldn't be blamed for Ultron, since he was just reverse-engineering Dragon-Man. Why does no one ever blame whoever invented Dragon-Man?

Pym didn't even switch Ultron on. When Pym realized Ultron was 'online' Pym tried to shut Ultron down right away. Ultron became immediately self aware and hostile.

All of Pym's unstable brain patterns, negative emotions, ect got added later. Writers have added more subconscious intent by Pym over the years when originally Ultron was just a rudimentary science experiment that got out of control.

[Skullkid]

i'm not interested in Magneto's redemption. i'm pointing out how it's not a 1x1 comparison with someone like Henry Pym. the X-Men would accept Pym without question if he were a mutant because he's a mutant.

So basically the X-Men are a cult who really don't care what deplorable people they align themselves with as long they have one similar trait.
And yet people are ok with this.
Funny really that it seems most X-Men fans don't get the point of the X-Men the same way they don't get the point of the Avengers.

[GrandEleven]

I didn't read the whole thread so sorry if this is covered, but honestly I think the answer is much more surface level and we're digging too deep:

Readers stopped caring about Pym decades ago. He's just not interesting.

Ultron is literally the only thing people really know or care about ... and for new readers they wont even have that (thanks to a movie retcon). At this point Marvel is swamped with super smart people, so outside the super villain he created he brings nothing to the table. The fact that he even gets pages every now and again feels like fan service more than anything else. Know your base I guess.

I don't think writers hate him. I think they are simply apathetic. He hasn't been an important character in decades.

[Ultimate Captain America]

So basically the X-Men are a cult who really don't care what deplorable people they align themselves with as long they have one similar trait.
And yet people are ok with this.
Funny really that it seems most X-Men fans don't get the point of the X-Men the same way they don't get the point of the Avengers.

You are a bit late to the news. The X-Men are a cult nowadays.

[Michael Watkins]

I'm having trouble seeing how your point has anything to do with mine. You keep talking about Magneto's acceptance by mutants,

actually, the first thing i said was that i don't care about his redemption. i'm a reader. i'm a Magneto fan. i'm perfectly ok with him being the bad guy and doing bad things. the issue is that i would see a significant amount of pushback if i called Pym a bad guy. yet he's done just as much damage as a Magneto or [pick another bad guy]. the hero worship makes me a bit nauseous.

and I'm primarily talking about Magneto's acceptance by readers. If your argument is that readers accept Magento's turn towards heroism/anti-heroism in the face of all he's done because the X-Men do, I can understand that. I think there's psychological precedence for that, although naturally there are examples of just that sort of thing going horribly wrong. Otherwise, you probably missed my point, and that's probably my fault, but I really don't care enough to go into it further.

i wouldn't bother to make that argument. because the X-Men are a collection of anti-heroes. Wolverine is a mass murderer. Jean Grey is a mass murderer. Cyclops is a terrorist. and the Avengers would treat them as such despite all of the blood on henry pym's hands.

[Michael Watkins]

So basically the X-Men are a cult who really don't care what deplorable people they align themselves with as long they have one similar trait.

The avengers have such higher standards. anyone remember when Quicksilver murdered an Inhuman so he could steal the terrigen crystals and get his daughter addicted to them? when did that happen? before he became an Uncanny Avenger? weird. remember when Lindy Reynolds was held prisoner at the top of Avengers Tower?

And yet people are ok with this.

depends on what people you're talking about. in the book, Charles Xavier has already been shot in the head. and they tried again this past Wednesday. outside of the book, people are ok with all sorts of things. there are probably people on this board who think Janet deserved the black eye.

Funny really that it seems most X-Men fans don't get the point of the X-Men the same way they don't get the point of the Avengers.

you're not actually saying anything.