Do writers hate Hank Pym Ant-Man?

[Michael Watkins]

It is a little weird that there is so many posts for a character some posters have said they don't find interesting or like. I guess the character triggers some people or something.

violence against women can be triggering. i somewhat remember this board establishing a zero tolerance policy because of the online harassment of a female poster. why should marvel not be held to the same standard? what Hank did (because of his status as a Lee/Kirby creation and founding avenger) should disqualify him from being a hero, imo.

[Skullkid]

The avengers have such higher standards. anyone remember when Quicksilver murdered an Inhuman so he could steal the terrigen crystals and get his daughter addicted to them? when did that happen? before he became an Uncanny Avenger? weird. remember when Lindy Reynolds was held prisoner at the top of Avengers Tower?




depends on what people you're talking about. in the book, Charles Xavier has already been shot in the head. and they tried again this past Wednesday. outside of the book, people are ok with all sorts of things. there are probably people on this board who think Janet deserved the black eye.



you're not actually saying anything.

I'm not actually saying anything?
That hold more weight if you actually did something besides make things up and ignore facts.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

why should marvel not be held to the same standard? what Hank did (because of his status as a Lee/Kirby creation and founding avenger) should disqualify him from being a hero, imo.

There are people who have genuine issues with a comic character who is meant to be a hero made unusable by becoming a domestic abuser, others who feel that superhero comics aren't the appropriate vehicle to deal with such stuff. There are also real fans of Hank Pym's early stories who might feel upset that just because Roy Thomas didn't show him at his best in the Avengers stories (as opposed to the early Lee-Kirby Tales to Astonish stuff), he was made unusable and irrevocable.

That's all fair. But at the same time, the Hank Pym controversy is often a vehicle for enabling toxic masculinity, victim blaming, and or coded justifications for domestic abuse.

I know this first hand online. On the tvtropes page, I tussled with one poster who was rewriting to essentially say that Hank was right to slap Janet.

And to me the whole Hank Pym controversy is just hypocritical. Hank Pym is a founding Avenger. Janet van Dyne is also a founding Avenger, in fact she came up with the title of the team so she's more the founder than he is. And the rehabilitation of Hank has come at the expense of Janet. This despite the fact that if you read the earlier stories, Janet was far more enthusiastic about the Avengers, did far more work to make the group and team into a dynamic, and as a rich philanthropist funded and backed the group as much as Tony did and often more. I mean in the period before the slap, Hank wasn't as active and vital to the team as she was. Heck right after her divorce with Hank, Janet went on to become leader of the Avengers under Roger Stern, and really came into her own. But nobody wants to really talk about that.

As someone pointed out here, Hank has had more solo short series than Janet has. I mean when the Ant-Man movie came out, sure it was humiliating for Hank to be made into Alfred for his own legacy character Scott Lang, but at least he got most of the screentime of the first two films, while Janet was made into a Lost Lenore, some disappeared female saint, important but absent and who's mostly discussed and talked about by men.

And you know...would we all still be talking about Hank Pym if he didn't become an abuser? It was the most interesting thing that happened to him and the source of conflict, tension, and baggage Pym brings to the superhero community is such that he will likely never be completely killed off. It's just way more interesting to have the superheroes constantly have to deal with the fact that one of their own, a person who has helped save the world, and save human lives, also happens to be a domestic abuser, which was publicly revealed. That alone explains why the Marvel civilians aren't so quick to trust superheroes. And likewise, the biggest problem dealing with domestic abuse irl is that the media culture always frames abusers as totally evil and ugly people, or stupid thugs...having a hero, a scientist, a wallflower dude who is capable of love and respect for women, also be capable of beating a wife...is actually one of the most effective stories about domestic violence in American media.

[Skullkid]

My god, he did not best her, he accidentally hit her once during a breakdown and then never laid a hand on her again.
This is the exact reason Hank Pym can't be allowed to move on as a character and do new things because everyone needs to keep going back to that and trying to make it look worse than it was.
He's just a man who made a mistake and constantly cycling back to it and throwing it in his face over and over is not good storytelling its just as much stagnation as it is to constantly have the X-Men facing genocide and never making any development towards mutant acceptance or Peter constantly losing his job and being down on his luck.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

My god, he did not best her, he accidentally hit her once during a breakdown and then never laid a hand on her again.

Immediately after he beat her, he told her cruelly to pick herself up, and then berated her, and then told her to participate in his evil scheme of siccing a robot on the fellow Avengers and in the day of his hearing he made her wear glasses to hide her bruise.

Those are all the actions of an abuser. Wearing big glasses to cover up bruises is a classic sign of a woman living with an abuser.

And the reason Pym never laid a hand on her again is because Janet divorced him then and there.

And well before that...Hank Pym was emotionally abusive to Janet, implying that she was dumb and stupid, accusing her of cheating on him and so on, and always implying how she would never measure up to Wifey#1 who died in USSR. He married Janet because she resembled his first wife. That's not a foundation for a healthy relationship.

This is the exact reason Hank Pym can't be allowed to move on as a character and do new things because everyone needs to keep going back to that and trying to make it look worse than it was.

Fans are in denial about how bad it really was. I mean I read that story out of curiosity and I was led to believe that this was a one-time thing and then I was shocked by the issue because Hank really was bad there.

I mean when Spidey accidentally hit MJ in the Clone Saga, he was immediately horrified by what he did and ran in shock and shame, keeping away from her. That's still pretty bad but at least we get a sense that Peter knows he did something unforgivable...whereas Hank Pym when he struck Janet, evinced no immediate remorse. He told her to pick herself up.

He's just a man who made a mistake and constantly cycling back to it and throwing it in his face over and over is not good storytelling ...

It's stagnant because people keep undoing the climax and point of that entire story. Namely that Hank Pym should quit being a superhero, go back to being a civilian scientist and get his life together. He never liked being a superhero, never wanted to be one, and wasn't the best at it. Let Scott Lang be Ant-Man, leave Janet alone to be in the Avengers where she would be happy, and have him go out and be happy. He can still be a civilian scientist and consultant and involved but that's about it.

That's the point of his biggest moment in Avengers #229 where he defeats the Masters of Evil:
Hank: "I did a pretty good job of screwing up my life recently. You just about finished the job for me! You used me, egghead...and you tried to make me a criminal! But you couldn't, you see. I've come to terms with myself in the past month. I know who I am, and who I'm not! I'm not Ant-Man anymore, I'm not Giant-Man...or Goliath...or Yellow-Jacket! I am Henry Pym! And it was Henry Pym who beat the Masters of Evil!
"

That entire speech is Hank taking responsibility for his actions and accepting consequences for what he did, and even finding a measure of happiness and catharsis. It's his World of Cardboard moment.

If you keep trying to make Hank into a superhero, if you keep trying to emphasize him being a "founding Avenger" and all that you are basically undoing this part, which is meant to be his redemption. Which means reversing Hank to the point in his character when he was capable of slapping Janet. So that's why it's always brought up.

[Michael Watkins]

My god, he did not best her, he accidentally hit her once during a breakdown and then never laid a hand on her again.
This is the exact reason Hank Pym can't be allowed to move on as a character and do new things because everyone needs to keep going back to that and trying to make it look worse than it was.
He's just a man who made a mistake and constantly cycling back to it and throwing it in his face over and over is not good storytelling its just as much stagnation as it is to constantly have the X-Men facing genocide and never making any development towards mutant acceptance or Peter constantly losing his job and being down on his luck.

i'm "throwing it in his face" because his fans keep talking about it. again, i didn't start this thread. the writers aren't throwing it in his face either. Pym is dead. not sure what you were going for with the comparison to a fictional species facing genocide and a fictional dude having lousy luck. Pym didn't beat up his wife because he was unlucky. he did it because he's insecure and considered her to be property. and that makes sense given that he's a throwback to the 60s.

[Skullkid]

You I'm ignoring, you've proven that you can't and wont add anything to the conversation besides trying to make Hank worse and ignoring given facts.

Immediately after he beat her, he told her cruelly to pick herself up, and then berated her, and then told her to participate in his evil scheme of siccing a robot on the fellow Avengers and in the day of his hearing he made her wear glasses to hide her bruise.

Those are all the actions of an abuser. Wearing big glasses to cover up bruises is a classic sign of a woman living with an abuser.

And the reason Pym never laid a hand on her again is because Janet divorced him then and there.

And well before that...Hank Pym was emotionally abusive to Janet, implying that she was dumb and stupid, accusing her of cheating on him and so on, and always implying how she would never measure up to Wifey#1 who died in USSR. He married Janet because she resembled his first wife. That's not a foundation for a healthy relationship.



Fans are in denial about how bad it really was. I mean I read that story out of curiosity and I was led to believe that this was a one-time thing and then I was shocked by the issue because Hank really was bad there.

I mean when Spidey accidentally hit MJ in the Clone Saga, he was immediately horrified by what he did and ran in shock and shame, keeping away from her. That's still pretty bad but at least we get a sense that Peter knows he did something unforgivable...whereas Hank Pym when he struck Janet, evinced no immediate remorse. He told her to pick herself up.



It's stagnant because people keep undoing the climax and point of that entire story. Namely that Hank Pym should quit being a superhero, go back to being a civilian scientist and get his life together. He never liked being a superhero, never wanted to be one, and wasn't the best at it. Let Scott Lang be Ant-Man, leave Janet alone to be in the Avengers where she would be happy, and have him go out and be happy. He can still be a civilian scientist and consultant and involved but that's about it.

That's the point of his biggest moment in Avengers #229 where he defeats the Masters of Evil:
Hank: "I did a pretty good job of screwing up my life recently. You just about finished the job for me! You used me, egghead...and you tried to make me a criminal! But you couldn't, you see. I've come to terms with myself in the past month. I know who I am, and who I'm not! I'm not Ant-Man anymore, I'm not Giant-Man...or Goliath...or Yellow-Jacket! I am Henry Pym! And it was Henry Pym who beat the Masters of Evil!
"

That entire speech is Hank taking responsibility for his actions and accepting consequences for what he did, and even finding a measure of happiness and catharsis. It's his World of Cardboard moment.

If you keep trying to make Hank into a superhero, if you keep trying to emphasize him being a "founding Avenger" and all that you are basically undoing this part, which is meant to be his redemption. Which means reversing Hank to the point in his character when he was capable of slapping Janet. So that's why it's always brought up.

All I'm seeing here is both more excuses to keep throwing it back in Hank's face and more trying look him worse than he actually was at that point.
Really all these comes down to is more people trying to double down on the hit and refusal to acknowledge that was then and this is now.

[Michael Watkins]

You I'm ignoring, you've proven that you can't and wont add anything to the conversation besides trying to make Hank worse and ignoring given facts.

he couldn't be worse.

[Alphaxman]

violence against women can be triggering. i somewhat remember this board establishing a zero tolerance policy because of the online harassment of a female poster. why should marvel not be held to the same standard? what Hank did (because of his status as a Lee/Kirby creation and founding avenger) should disqualify him from being a hero, imo.

In that case, Reed, Peter and Logan should also be axed as heroes.

I'm in the camp that Marvel should have left the issue of the slap in the 70s. Once Hank joined the West Cost Avengers he should have had a clean slate. I do think it was a mistake for writers to force him and Jan as a couple. She grow past him by the 80s to the point that their personalities didn't mesh anymore.

If they would have just left him as Dr. Pym, and avoided his Antman and Giantman personas alone, he could have moved past his mistakes without always feeling overshadowed by Jan.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

In that case, Reed, Peter and Logan should also be axed as heroes.

The story where Hank slaps Janet is part of his greatest, if not among his best stories. It's a defining element of his character which isn't the case with the others.

The stories where these guys do shady stuff aren't great stories. So it's easy to chalk that to bad writing than something particular to the character.

If they would have just left him as Dr. Pym, and avoided his Antman and Giantman personas alone, he could have moved past his mistakes without always feeling overshadowed by Jan.

That I agree with. Hank Pym should never have become Ant-Man again. He should have been a scientist and civilian asset for the superhero community, and maybe a guy other younger heroes go to with problems and dealing with their stuff, allowing him to be some therapist.

[Agent Z]

You I'm ignoring, you've proven that you can't and wont add anything to the conversation besides trying to make Hank worse and ignoring given facts.





All I'm seeing here is both more excuses to keep throwing it back in Hank's face and more trying look him worse than he actually was at that point.
Really all these comes down to is more people trying to double down on the hit and refusal to acknowledge that was then and this is now.

I very rarely agree with revolutionary jack but what he said in his post wasn't inaccurate.

[Michael Watkins]

In that case, Reed, Peter and Logan should also be axed as heroes.

sure. kill them too.

[Commissioner Wayne]

not sure what you were going for with the comparison to a fictional species facing genocide and a fictional dude having lousy luck.

As opposed to a fictional dude who struck his fictional wife during a fictional breakdown? For someone who says he doesn't care about (fictional) Pym, you've spent an awful lot of time in this thread trying to knock him down. Fictionally speaking, of course.

[Triniking1234]

The only reason Pym became a costumed hero again was because Marvel believed West Coast redeemed him and a new Avengers stint would prevent both him and Janet from falling into obscurity.

People acting as if Marvel never tried to redeem Pym and they just made him a good guy again like what Bendis did to Wonder Man.

[king of hybrids]

I think there’s also the issue that the controversy around Hank keeps him from fading into the background and becoming... MCU Hank basically, so he keeps getting dragged to the forefront, either as a hero in an attempt to ‘redeem’ him, or to harp on about what a bastard he is for the theoretical benefit of Jan or her designated love interest. It does nothing really for Jan and it negatively affects his legion of legacy characters.