Do writers hate Hank Pym Ant-Man?

[ARkadelphia]

All this is a bit weird. In any other genre, a domestic abuser is a domestic abuser and that's it: he's a horrible person, and at some point he gets the fate he deserves (or not, if the work is really dark). Period. Pym must be the only case where a fictional domestic abuser has people rooting for him, trying to find excuses for him, asking for redemption and treating him as a misunderstood moral champion. Fortunately, most writers and editors know better than that.

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See Luke and Laura in General Hospital for a situation where a rape victim falls in love with her rapist and the storyline is beloved as one of the greatest in soap opera history.

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Millar's intention with the Ultimates were to do a satire of the Avengers. He intentionally made them extreme versions of their 616 counterparts.

Captain America (Jingoistic man from the forties)
Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver (incestuous relationship)
Black Widow (anti-american child murderer)
Hulk (Cannibal)
Wasp (eats bugs and is bulimic)
Hawkeye (sadomasochist murderer)

I don't think they hate him per say.

But I think they just sort of gave up on trying to fix him. He had decades being in this endless cycle of fixing him only for someone to come along and break him again. After a certain point, you stop swimming against the tide and just go with it.

Someone in Editorial should of just put a hold on the whole abuse topic and constant redemption cycle years ago and just have writers only use him if they are bringing fresh ideas or stories.

I think the problem is that Marvel forgets that they made Hank an irredeemable dirtbag enough times that they’ve foolishly put him front and centre of comic runs, or even cartoons where he’s a hero*, as well as the MCU (lousy father though), only for things to get awkward once someone with a slightly more adjusted set of ethics and/or a need for drama comes along and reminds everyone.

They should have gone with the original plan of making Hank the big bad of the Ant-man film things would have been simpler thanks to Synergy.

*i acknowledge that, obviously, none of the cartoon versions of Hank emotionally or physically abused Janet.

Hank was never going to be the villain in the Ant-Man movie. He was always intended to be Scott Lang's mentor and the original Ant-Man. the original director and writer Edgar Wright brought talked about it a number of times when he was attached to the film.

Edgar supposedly had his own made for film villain that wasn't from the comics.

The only thing that seemingly changed was that Hank Pym was possibly going to die at the end of in Edgar's version instead of just being shot and injured in the MCU Reed film.


I don't think Hank Pym has ever been a outright villain in the comics. Even when Hank had a full on mental breakdown or temporarily sided with Kang, he wasn't outright evil. Even the Pymtron thing has been ambiguous.

Is Hank a dirtbag though? The character has been depicted as making some serious mistakes but his personality when he is mentally well is generally a caring bookish guy who could sometimes be insecure. When he was Giant-Man/Yellowjacket he could be pretty cocky but his not some no morals having evil guy that is a jerk to everyone.

[ETMike1988]

All this is a bit weird. In any other genre, a domestic abuser is a domestic abuser and that's it: he's a horrible person, and at some point he gets the fate he deserves (or not, if the work is really dark). Period. Pym must be the only case where a fictional domestic abuser has people rooting for him, trying to find excuses for him, asking for redemption and treating him as a misunderstood moral champion. Fortunately, most writers and editors know better than that.

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Hank Pym has got a bipolar disorder so he was only abusive because of his mental sickness!
And there is only a few bipolar characters in the MU so some readers root for him because they don't want him to become a bad representation of bipolar people.

[Michael Watkins]

hank's bipolar disorder is a retcon. i know it makes people uncomfortable. but Hank was abusive because he was deeply insecure about his relationship and his worth compared to the other Avengers. he's just a guy with a fragile ego. that mental illness stuff was slapped on much later to give him an "out." the character who writers really hate is Janet. otherwise, they'd stop trying to give Pym an out. bipolar disorder isn't something that gets you a free pass in the real world. if someone had a bipolar flip out on this board, they would be banned. would people be defending Hank if he had raped Janet while manic?

[Michael Watkins]

Black Widow murdered innocent people when working for the KGB.

and she owns up to it. pym just whines about how his reputation was damaged.

Wolverine maimed, and probably killed regular joes in bar scuffles. Not to mention stabbing or trying to stab fellow X-Men.

yes. that's how he got the nickname "psycho" from Cyclops. it was a term of endearment. Wolverine hasn't been given a pass for the horrible stuff that he's done. the writers are quite cruel to him. imagine if Pym were charred to a cinder or flayed alive in most altercations. Logan has, literally, been consigned to Hell before.

Iron Man was a weapon seller.

his company has built weapons that the military purchased. there's nothing illegal or unethical about his business practices. hell, they made him secretary of defense at one point.

Rogue destroyed an innocent woman's mind and was only sorry about it because it backfired.

people probably shouldn't like Rogue. if she were a guy, there would definitely be people pointing out that she often doesn't wait for consent before kissing people (not to mention the stealing of minds).

In the MCU, Valkyrie was a slave trader and the Hulk slaughtered those slaves for fun and giggles.

no idea what you're talking about.

Only a couple of them showed as much guilt as Pym and did as much efforts to atone.

did he seem guilty after giving her a black eye? i don't remember that. i remember him being angry that she stopped his robot. if you're talking about the begging that he did later, it's not unusual for an abusive guy to try to manipulate their victim. he probably thought that she would just give him the same pass that his fans have.

[Michael Watkins]

Do you have anything to actually add to the conversation?
So far all your posts just boil to the same thing, which is pretty much you ignoring Hank's problems and trying to put it all on him.

"Do writers hate Hank Pym Ant-Man?"

answer: no. he's a fictional character. but he's also a really problematic character to portray as a hero. it sends a very bad message about abuse victims and people suffering with real mental disorders. this is something that Marvel and Disney generally handle better. i get that the character appeals to the nostalgia of people who grew up in the 50s and 60s (or only know the sanitized version from the cartoons). but his archetype hasn't aged well. and it took a hard turn into something ugly during the 80s. they had their chance to make it right. but, at this point, the only way to salvage Pym is to use one from another reality or earlier point in time. anything else is just rubbing it in Janet's face. that's me acknowledging every one of his problems. he is damaged goods. this is my opinion.

[Skullkid]

That's not you addressing anything.
That's just more you saying the character is bad and there's nothing to be done with him, and trying to do so is somehow disrespectful to Janet.

[Agent Z]

"Do writers hate Hank Pym Ant-Man?"

answer: no. he's a fictional character. but he's also a really problematic character to portray as a hero. it sends a very bad message about abuse victims and people suffering with real mental disorders. this is something that Marvel and Disney generally handle better. i get that the character appeals to the nostalgia of people who grew up in the 50s and 60s (or only know the sanitized version from the cartoons). but his archetype hasn't aged well. and it took a hard turn into something ugly during the 80s. they had their chance to make it right. but, at this point, the only way to salvage Pym is to use one from another reality or earlier point in time. anything else is just rubbing it in Janet's face. that's me acknowledging every one of his problems. he is damaged goods. this is my opinion.

Which one, the depiction of mental disorders? I'd argue they are generally very poor at that.

[MichaelC]

Yeah, Disney tends to run with the old trope of treating mental-illness like a sin that is purged by character-development and epiphanies rather than a permanent medical condition that the victim must learn to deal with.

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I'm not sure how writing stories about one fictional character is rubbing anything in the face of another fictional characters face. Neither character is real and thus don't have feelings.

I'm sure victims of domestic abuse have far more pressing issues to be upset about than a fictional character's actions in a comic book storyline 40 years ago. Honestly I don't think most people have even read the whole story arc in which the abuse took place. People were not boycotting Marvel the past three decades because they published stories about Hank Pym being a superhero and I doubt they would if Marvel did so in the future.

Pym took responsibility. Hank apologized, quit the Avengers, opened a women's shelter dedicated to Janet and so on.

Hank and Janet even dated again in the comics post slap and a couple of writers had plans for them to remarry.

The whole Pym backlash really kicked off with Avenger's dissembled and has been building over subsequent years with a few writers depicting characters like Iron Man and Captain Marvel still having resentment towards Pym despite the fact they had been on teams with him in the past without being shown to have issues with him.

hank's bipolar disorder is a retcon. i know it makes people uncomfortable. but Hank was abusive because he was deeply insecure about his relationship and his worth compared to the other Avengers. he's just a guy with a fragile ego. that mental illness stuff was slapped on much later to give him an "out." the character who writers really hate is Janet. otherwise, they'd stop trying to give Pym an out. bipolar disorder isn't something that gets you a free pass in the real world. if someone had a bipolar flip out on this board, they would be banned. would people be defending Hank if he had raped Janet while manic?

Hank's mental illness isn't a retcon.

When his wife Maria 'died' he had a mental breakdown way back in that sixties Tales To Astonish story.

There was the whole Yellowjacket 'split personality' that developed from exposure to gases that induced "schizophrenia".

Hank's depression which lead him to almost commit suicide.


At various times throughout the character's history he has been shown to suffer from bouts of mental illness.

Marvel has not always been good at depicting or diagnosing Hank Pym's mental illness but has always been there. Even in the actual arc involving the slap it depicted Hank's deteriorating mental health.

I'm not sure what hypothetical situations have to do with anything but I doubt people would still be interested in reading about the Pym character as a hero if he raped anyone. The character didn't so I'm not sure why it is relevant. Both Hank and Janet would benefit from permanently moving on from the abuse storyline and having stories going forward just focus on new things for both of them but it is a juicy bone some writer just can't let go or feel the need to constantly address.

[MyriVerse]

I feel like that is the crux of it. It's become Hank Pym's "defining moment" for so long it's kind of too late to go and do reconstruction of his character. It's likely the reason Scott was chosen to be the Ant Man in the live action adaptation; there's far less baggage to the character. It's like how Mar-Vell at this point is known more for as dying from cancer, so it's way too late to put that genie back in the bottle.

Thing is, it wasn't until recently treated as a "defining moment." For a long, long time the actual defining moment was him becoming better.

[Michael Watkins]

Which one, the depiction of mental disorders? I'd argue they are generally very poor at that.

i'd say that they've done a decent job. Pym's the only wife beater who uses mental illness as an excuse, so far.

[kcekada]

Those people are deliberate, serial abusers. Somehow I doubt it compares when we take into account the complete history of the character of Hank Pym. 616 Hank Pym of course.

True. People get carried away with depicting Hank as an abuser -- when it was limited to the very lowest point in his life. I'll never feel that scene was organic -- I read it as the time and it didn't ring true. But you have to accept it as it was written -- and judge Hank based on how he acted since then. I really tire of people being so condescending for something someone did or said 10, 20, 30 years ago -- when it's not part of their current behavior.

[Agent Z]

i'd say that they've done a decent job. Pym's the only wife beater who uses mental illness as an excuse, so far.

Virtually everytime mental illness comes up in a superhero story, it's for no other reason than to make a villain or antihero look more disturbing. And that's when they aren't treating it as a weakness for a hero to be ashamed of.

If Pym is an offensive depiction of the mentally ill he is far from the only example in marvel.

[Michael Watkins]

Pym took responsibility. Hank apologized, quit the Avengers, opened a women's shelter dedicated to Janet and so on.

*wrong buzzer sound* that works on people who haven't read the books.

Pym did not take responsibility. he was exposed because she had a clearly bruised face. he then later took Jan into the hallway of avengers mansion and tried to say that what happened "wasn't that bad." he also had his fingers crossed that it was immortus tampering. but true responsibility was never taken. he apparently thought he was smarter than the psychiatric community. instead of taking his meds, he built a game room. and look where he is now.

Hank didn't quit the Avengers. he ran away when his plan to shame the Avengers out of voting him out blew up in his face. he basically went and hid after throwing a tantrum. it was shameful. he tried to run away again but Firebird stopped him from pulling the trigger.

he opened a women's shelter a good decade after beating up his wife. and it was triggered by her being killed by a skrull wearing his face. that skrull was in a position to do so because Pym decided to hurt Jan (again) by sleeping with an undergraduate. this is nothing to brag about. it's actually kind of tacky for him to open that shelter in her name given his prior refusal to take responsibility for harming her. and since you brought it up, i've seen plenty of people in this thread say that Pym isn't an abuser. then what was the significance of him opening a women's shelter? think about it.

here's the pseudo-apology. where is bipolar illness mentioned? people are saying that it's not a retcon.