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  1. #271
    IRON MAN Tony Stark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    While I agree Reed is probably a tier above Hank (and probably every other hero) I actually felt that Hank came off above Stark.

    Stark built the Avengers a mansion, while Pym had an Infinity Mansion. Stark had jets, while Pym had magical doors. Pyms tech was basically Dr. Who level stuff. To me at least, it seemed way more advanced than stuff Stark often uses.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jabare View Post
    oh your not wrong. His use of Pym Particles vs suite of armor is another example, but I feel this instance and Ultron aside. Stark is usually portrayed as more of the big brain by writters. Looka t recent events. It was Reed and Stark in Empyre. Outside of two or three runs in the last 15 years I don't know if Hank is propped up like Tony is. I'm sure the MCU also contributed to this since Ironman was one of the main faces
    Pym himself said that Stark was smarter. Tony invented a time machine and used that tech to make a time machine armor. Marvel stated in a video that as far as super heroes go that after Moon Girl and Reed comes Tony Stark. I am in no way knocking Pym. Just stating why Tony is considered to be and is smarter.
    Last edited by Tony Stark; 09-11-2020 at 12:22 AM.
    " This is why you're the head of S.H.I.E.L.D, Stark. Because you're stronger than anyone. It's not the armor....and you know it. Your here because impossible things happen, and when they do, They call on you to deal with them. You see the angles, Tony. You always have. You see the possible solutions to things that shouldn't be happening." CAROL DANVERS

  2. #272
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    So Tony Stark has fewer variety of inventions compared to Reed, Doom, and Hank. I'd rank Hank lower because Doom and Tony at least have control over their inventions whereas Hank never had control over Ultron.
    Well, some Doombots have gone rogue and Tony once had an AI in his armor that tried to kill/control him...

  3. #273
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Well, some Doombots have gone rogue and Tony once had an AI in his armor that tried to kill/control him...
    Balanced out by the other Doombots and other AI that stayed on the up-and-up. Hank has never had a single robot work out right for him, whether it's Ultron or you know that robot he created to astroturf a hero moment for him.

  4. #274
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Balanced out by the other Doombots and other AI that stayed on the up-and-up. Hank has never had a single robot work out right for him, whether it's Ultron or you know that robot he created to astroturf a hero moment for him.
    But the robots he's inadvertently been responsible for like Vision, Jocasta, and Victor Mancha turned out great.

  5. #275
    Incredible Member Nazrel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    But the robots he's inadvertently been responsible for like Vision, Jocasta, and Victor Mancha turned out great.
    Because the robot he created is as inept as he is at making robots.
    Context is king.

    X-23's most basic surface level characteristic that any idiot should grasp: Stoicism.
    I don't demand that her every minor appearance be a nuance in-depth examination of her character, but is it to much to ask she be written in Archetype?! This is storytelling 101! If you want people to stay invested in a character, you need to, at the bare minimum, write them such a way that they can plausibly be believed to be the same character!

  6. #276
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nazrel View Post
    Because the robot he created is as inept as he is at making robots.
    Yeah, Vision, Jocasta, Victor Mancha are Ultron's handiwork not Hank's.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    But the robots he's inadvertently been responsible for like Vision, Jocasta, and Victor Mancha turned out great.
    If we want to give Hank credit for the robots made by Ultron, then we have to assign him personal responsibility for the people Ultron killed, including the genocide of Slorenia.

  7. #277
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nazrel View Post
    Because the robot he created is as inept as he is at making robots.
    Or at least Ultron isn't the be all, end all, of what is possible with AI's. Which is why Hank made a team designed around protecting and containing them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Yeah, Vision, Jocasta, Victor Mancha are Ultron's handiwork not Hank's.
    But he is their grandpa.
    If we want to give Hank credit for the robots made by Ultron, then we have to assign him personal responsibility for the people Ultron killed, including the genocide of Slorenia.
    He already feels responsible for Ultron's crimes, so not much of a stretch.

  8. #278
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Since we're sort of on the subject, I always found it weird that they gave the Ultron story to Hank instead of Stark. Making robots seemed more up Starks ally. Plus, Stark seemed more of a match against Utron than Hank (even though Ultron is more powerful than both).

    Though I guess it made more sense to go with Hank in the long run given Hank clearly had mental issues which ended up being mirrored in Ultron.

  9. #279
    Mighty Member Ra-El's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nazrel View Post
    Because the robot he created is as inept as he is at making robots.
    I was listening to the podcast of HBO Max Raised by Wolves, and they were talking about how the AIs will be trully advanced when they start creating another AIs, so Hank did a great job in terms of innovation.

  10. #280
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Since we're sort of on the subject, I always found it weird that they gave the Ultron story to Hank instead of Stark. Making robots seemed more up Starks ally. Plus, Stark seemed more of a match against Utron than Hank (even though Ultron is more powerful than both).

    Though I guess it made more sense to go with Hank in the long run given Hank clearly had mental issues which ended up being mirrored in Ultron.
    Historically, the Big Three of the Avengers (Cap, Tony, Thor) on account of having their own titles had some restrictions on what could be done with them on Avengers books. The rule was generally that you couldn't do permanent character stuff with them in an Avengers title. They could be in Avengers, get into fights and pose and look good, and banter and so on, but no romances, no major subplots could be initiated with them in an Avengers title.

    That meant that Roy Thomas had to focus the soap opera on the characters he had control over hence Hank and Janet, and later Vision and Wanda and so on and so forth.

    So I think Hank Pym making Ultron was a condition of the fact that he was the one smart guy that Roy Thomas had who he could mess around with.

  11. #281
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Maybe it's just my own bias talking, but the instances of Ultron being created by Tony (MCU, cartoons) just don't seem as effective as when Hank builds it.

  12. #282
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Maybe it's just my own bias talking, but the instances of Ultron being created by Tony (MCU, cartoons) just don't seem as effective as when Hank builds it.
    That's a valid arguement.

    I think there's more emotional baggage with Ultron and Hank. There's a whole oedipus complex that I don't think really existed with Stark and Ultron. Plus there's the whole issue of their extended family, making it all that much more messed up.

    Stuff like giving Jocasta flesh-like arms and legs so he mess around with a robot is stuff you just can't do with anyone except Hank Pym.

  13. #283
    The King Fears NO ONE! Triniking1234's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Maybe it's just my own bias talking, but the instances of Ultron being created by Tony (MCU, cartoons) just don't seem as effective as when Hank builds it.
    Because it was a one-and-done and it's just part of the on-going trend of MCU villains being tied to Tony for shits and giggles even outside his movies like Vulture, Mysterio, HYDRA/Winter Soldier and I probably missed one or two.

    The cartoon one is weird cuz it's supposed to be EMH Ultron created by Hank hacking Tony's Arsenal.
    "Cable was right!"

  14. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Maybe it's just my own bias talking, but the instances of Ultron being created by Tony (MCU, cartoons) just don't seem as effective as when Hank builds it.
    Oedipus complex aside, it's because Ultron would be just another statistic in Tony's record of making dangerous weapons his entire life even prior to becoming a superhero.

    Hank however hasn't made anything like Ultron prior to Ultron and is a total contrast to Ultron as a person. He has the personality of a wallflower, and is more interested in using science to improve everyone's lives than Tony is.

    Also did Tony make Ultron in any of the new cartoons? I know it was still Hank in EMH.
    Last edited by Kaitou D. Kid; 09-11-2020 at 12:19 PM.

  15. #285

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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Since we're sort of on the subject, I always found it weird that they gave the Ultron story to Hank instead of Stark. Making robots seemed more up Starks ally. Plus, Stark seemed more of a match against Utron than Hank (even though Ultron is more powerful than both).

    Though I guess it made more sense to go with Hank in the long run given Hank clearly had mental issues which ended up being mirrored in Ultron.
    That may be the case nowadays, but robot characters were not much of a thing back then. Robots were either just cannon fodder for a villain at worst, an elite cannon fodder (such the Thinker's android, or Galactus' Punisher), or AIs who turn rogue and want to destroy all humanity at best (including Ultron; there was also Master Mold). Vision was one of the first, if not the very first, robot (or whatever) character with an actual and complex characterization.

    Of course, we had the original Human Torch, but I have not read his WWII comics. Did writers actually explore his nature and motivations as an android, as it happened with Vision, or was it just a throwaway backstory to explain his fire powers?

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