Do writers hate Hank Pym Ant-Man?

[Frontier]

Also did Tony make Ultron in any of the new cartoons? I know it was still Hank in EMH.

In Assemble they never really go into how Ultron was created, he just kind of shows up. But one his last lines in his last appearance him talking about how Tony created him even though it was never really brought up before that.

The show had this weird dynamic of assuming it's audience watched the movies rather than actually doing a thorough job of establishing characters, despite not being 1-for-1 set in the same universe of the movies.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I agree that Ultron on the whole makes the most sense with Hank as Dad, than Tony. In the MCU Ultron wasn't as impressive as in the comics (props to the VFX and James Spader, nothing against them, it's the writing and conception that didn't work).

Hank Pym is a fundamentally sad character. He was a shy wallflower, then he met the love of his wife in Maria Trovaya and she got him to open up, and was his equal. And then she died tragically, and he tried to recreate that with Janet and that didn't work. Ultron works as a metaphor and manifestation of a midlife crisis from a guy with a lot of disappointments. He thought he had his happy ending, and then he had to invest and start from scratch with a woman younger than him who didn't share his interests, establish himself as a great superhero in a team of other already established types.

Now of course, Tony Stark is also a hero with a mid-life crisis (especially the MCU version) so there's some similarity there but it's not the same because Tony was essentially in a state of arrested development whereas Hank was the guy who "had it all" for a little while (success, fame, prestige, love of his life). Tony never really became a guy with a fulfilling life because he basically acted like a fratboy still showing up suckers in class and never came to terms with his privilege (i.e. MCU take but this has entered the comics too) whereas Hank did have that fulfillment.

In a way that's basically what separates Reed, Hank, Tony. Reed is the complete man of the three...he's had fulfillment, he's an adult, he's grown up, and he's found a good solid niche for his middle years and (these days with his teenage kids is probably dreaming of retirement with Sue). Tony is the immature one who grew up too late after the time he should have spent has gone and is making up for lost time (which explains his constant overreaching and overcorrection). Whereas Hank is like Reed, but a Reed who has seen his life undone and further undoes his own legacy. That's what makes him poignant and work as a cautionary tale in Marvel.

[Frontier]

I agree that Ultron on the whole makes the most sense with Hank as Dad, than Tony. In the MCU Ultron wasn't as impressive as in the comics (props to the VFX and James Spader, nothing against them, it's the writing and conception that didn't work).

Hank Pym is a fundamentally sad character. He was a shy wallflower, then he met the love of his wife in Maria Trovaya and she got him to open up, and was his equal. And then she died tragically, and he tried to recreate that with Janet and that didn't work. Ultron works as a metaphor and manifestation of a midlife crisis from a guy with a lot of disappointments. He thought he had his happy ending, and then he had to invest and start from scratch with a woman younger than him who didn't share his interests, establish himself as a great superhero in a team of other already established types.

Now of course, Tony Stark is also a hero with a mid-life crisis (especially the MCU version) so there's some similarity there but it's not the same because Tony was essentially in a state of arrested development whereas Hank was the guy who "had it all" for a little while (success, fame, prestige, love of his life). Tony never really became a guy with a fulfilling life because he basically acted like a fratboy still showing up suckers in class and never came to terms with his privilege (i.e. MCU take but this has entered the comics too) whereas Hank did have that fulfillment.

In a way that's basically what separates Reed, Hank, Tony. Reed is the complete man of the three...he's had fulfillment, he's an adult, he's grown up, and he's found a good solid niche for his middle years and (these days with his teenage kids is probably dreaming of retirement with Sue). Tony is the immature one who grew up too late after the time he should have spent has gone and is making up for lost time (which explains his constant overreaching and overcorrection). Whereas Hank is like Reed, but a Reed who has seen his life undone and further undoes his own legacy. That's what makes him poignant and work as a cautionary tale in Marvel.

Spader was good for what he was supposed to do but he's no Tom Kane.

I mean, Reed's definitely not perfect. He throws himself into his experiments at the expense of his family and he can never permanently undo what he did to them through his own hubris (especially Ben) and doesn't always think through the consequences of his experiments. I think it was Waid who established that he came up with "Mister Fantastic" to mock himself.

I think Hank is an inspirational character in terms of all the failure's and mistakes he's made yet he still strives to do good and help people. Well, before they turned him into Ultron.

[Mary Jay]

Balanced out by the other Doombots and other AI that stayed on the up-and-up. Hank has never had a single robot work out right for him, whether it's Ultron or you know that robot he created to astroturf a hero moment for him.

In WCA he created a flying vehicle with an AI, which was called Rover, and it was loyal and good. He knew what he had done wrong with Ultron so he created Rover with a lesser level of intellect. I seem to recall being refered to in the comics as having the loyalty of a dog. Reed Richard was even impressed by it, and I remember Franklin even petting Rover as if it were a puppy

Hank Pym is a fundamentally sad character. He was a shy wallflower, then he met the love of his wife in Maria Trovaya and she got him to open up, and was his equal. And then she died tragically, and he tried to recreate that with Janet and that didn't work. Ultron works as a metaphor and manifestation of a midlife crisis from a guy with a lot of disappointments. He thought he had his happy ending, and then he had to invest and start from scratch with a woman younger than him who didn't share his interests, establish himself as a great superhero in a team of other already established types.

It worked for a long while though. From the mid 60s to 1982, then again during WCA, and Busiek's run. In the history of Marvel comics, since the beginning of their publication until now, Hank and Jan have been in a relationship (married or dating) longer than they have been separated, with the exception of when one of them was "dead".

In a way that's basically what separates Reed, Hank, Tony. Reed is the complete man of the three...he's had fulfillment, he's an adult, he's grown up, and he's found a good solid niche for his middle years and (these days with his teenage kids is probably dreaming of retirement with Sue). Tony is the immature one who grew up too late after the time he should have spent has gone and is making up for lost time (which explains his constant overreaching and overcorrection). Whereas Hank is like Reed, but a Reed who has seen his life undone and further undoes his own legacy. That's what makes him poignant and work as a cautionary tale in Marvel.

Interesting analysis of the characters. I would disagree on the part about Reed but that's just my personal opinion. And I'm not sure I've read enough about him to form a fair opinion.

I think Hank is an inspirational character in terms of all the failure's and mistakes he's made yet he still strives to do good and help people. Well, before they turned him into Ultron.

Well, he certainly was inspiring to me.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

It worked for a long while though. From the mid 60s to 1982, then again during WCA, and Busiek's run. In the history of Marvel comics, since the beginning of their publication until now, Hank and Jan have been in a relationship (married or dating) longer than they have been separated, with the exception of when one of them was "dead".

You make them sound like they're Peter and MJ, they're not. It's canon that Hank fell for Janet because she resembled Maria, and that she served as a replacement goldfish for him to fill the hole left by her. Roger Stern's first issues, including the one with Hank in prison after he refuses Scott's offer to burst him out, establishes that. Maria Trovaya is Hank's greatest love, and with the arrival of Nadia, she's also the mother of his child.

Interesting analysis of the characters. I would disagree on the part about Reed but that's just my personal opinion. And I'm not sure I've read enough about him to form a fair opinion.

Hank I think would be jealous of Reed. He got the scientific success, the celebrity, kept his marriage and raised children.

[Mary Jay]

You make them sound like they're Peter and MJ, they're not. It's canon that Hank fell for Janet because she resembled Maria, and that she served as a replacement goldfish for him to fill the hole left by her. Roger Stern's first issues, including the one with Hank in prison after he refuses Scott's offer to burst him out, establishes that. Maria Trovaya is Hank's greatest love, and with the arrival of Nadia, she's also the mother of his child.

Well, I'm not comparing them to anyone really, I'm just going with the numbers here. They met in TTA #44 published in 1963 and started dating a bit after that. They got married in Avengers #59 published in 1968, and got divorced in 1982. They hooked back together in WCA, around issue 43 in 1989, and separated "on good terms" later, around 1991 (again, memory fails me). It was unclear if they were back together by the end of vol. 1 of the Avengers run, but I'd say yes, and it was around 1996. Through all the Avengers vol. 2 they were together (although Jan got killed in that "universe") and they were together from the beginning of the third volume of the Avengers (Feb. 1998) to the infamous 180 degrees turn by Austin beginning around 2004. Then came Disassembled and the mess Bendis did to the characters, and although their relationship wasn't good at that point, there was still a time between Disassembled and the beginning of the whole Skrull invasion when they were together, although it's impossible to put a number to it, so I won't take it into account.

So to round the numbers, they have been in a relationship for 29 years out of the 41 years they had been in publication up to 2004. From 2004 to 2009, Hank was replaced by a Skrull, then Jan died until 2012 (so that time shouldn't count IMO since one of them was clearly unavailable). Hank "died" in 2015 by the hands of Ultron. So since 2004 there was only a 3 year window where the two characters were existing at the same time in the comics. So, if we don't take into consideration the time that one character was existing while the other one was MIA, then they have 29 years together out of 44 years of parallel published history, which adds up to 66% of their published history has been with them in a relationship.

Wow... I really didn't mean this to sound like a lecture, I was just genuinely curious to do the math. I honestly wasn't expecting such numbers, I thought it would be less, to be frank...

The way I always read Hank's love for Jan was that, yes at first she reminded him of Maria, not really by the looks but by her determination and her strength. He was aware of this and held back from falling for her at first because of this very reason. It was clear as day in the TTA books, where Jan would go out of her way to get a reaction from him, with no avail. She even figured it out herself when he finally told her the story about Maria and how he lost her. That is the canon I go for because that's how it was published in the TTA books. How Roger Stern interpreted it twenty years later doesn't superceed the story from the 60s IMO.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Well, I'm not comparing them to anyone really, I'm just going with the numbers here. They met in TTA #44 published in 1963 and started dating a bit after that. They got married in Avengers #59 published in 1968, and got divorced in 1982. They hooked back together in WCA, around issue 43 in 1989, and separated "on good terms" later, around 1991 (again, memory fails me). It was unclear if they were back together by the end of vol. 1 of the Avengers run, but I'd say yes, and it was around 1996. Through all the Avengers vol. 2 they were together (although Jan got killed in that "universe") and they were together from the beginning of the third volume of the Avengers (Feb. 1998) to the infamous 180 degrees turn by Austin beginning around 2004. Then came Disassembled and the mess Bendis did to the characters, and although their relationship wasn't good at that point, there was still a time between Disassembled and the beginning of the whole Skrull invasion when they were together, although it's impossible to put a number to it, so I won't take it into account.

So to round the numbers, they have been in a relationship for 29 years out of the 41 years they had been in publication up to 2004. From 2004 to 2009, Hank was replaced by a Skrull, then Jan died until 2012 (so that time shouldn't count IMO since one of them was clearly unavailable). Hank "died" in 2015 by the hands of Ultron. So since 2004 there was only a 3 year window where the two characters were existing at the same time in the comics. So, if we don't take into consideration the time that one character was existing while the other one was MIA, then they have 29 years together out of 44 years of parallel published history, which adds up to 66% of their published history has been with them in a relationship.

Wow... I really didn't mean this to sound like a lecture, I was just genuinely curious to do the math. I honestly wasn't expecting such numbers, I thought it would be less, to be frank...

As someone who's a bit of a numbers' guy myself (INSERT WILLEM DAFOE MEME HERE) I can relate. I get your point, you are trying to make a case that in comics' continuity as far as readers are concerned, Hank's relationship with Janet is a major throughline. That said if I run your own numbers, they weren't in a relationship between 1982-1989 (8 years), 1991-1996 (6 years), 2004-2020 basically (16 years). That's 30 years where Hank and Janet weren't in a relationship together. Which is equal to and greater than the time they aren't together. In either case, it's moot.

Hank Pym Ant-Man and Janet never commanded their own ongoing. Most of their big character stuff happened in the pages of The Avengers, a team-book. It's hard to argue that the romance is a defining element of characters who never had their ongoing.

The way I always read Hank's love for Jan was that, yes at first she reminded him of Maria, not really by the looks but by her determination and her strength. He was aware of this and held back from falling for her at first because of this very reason. It was clear as day in the TTA books, where Jan would go out of her way to get a reaction from him, with no avail. She even figured it out herself when he finally told her the story about Maria and how he lost her. That is the canon I go for because that's how it was published in the TTA books. How Roger Stern interpreted it twenty years later doesn't superceed the story from the 60s IMO.

Nothing Stern wrote contradicts any of what you said. The fact is Janet filled a void in Hank's life left behind by Maria, and their relationship was based on Hank's belief that Janet was a second Maria.

[Mary Jay]

As someone who's a bit of a numbers' guy myself (INSERT WILLEM DAFOE MEME HERE) I can relate. I get your point, you are trying to make a case that in comics' continuity as far as readers are concerned, Hank's relationship with Janet is a major throughline. That said if I run your own numbers, they weren't in a relationship between 1982-1989 (8 years), 1991-1996 (6 years), 2004-2020 basically (16 years). That's 30 years where Hank and Janet weren't in a relationship together. Which is equal to and greater than the time they aren't together. In either case, it's moot.

Always love a fellow number-lover

I didn't take into account the 2004-2012 period because one of them was MIA during those time (either lost in the Microverse or replaced by a Skrull). As I said, it wouldn't be fair to take those years into consideration since one or the other was clearly unavailable (i.e. not published).

I think this all shows to prove one could really interpret numbers in very different ways

Hank Pym Ant-Man and Janet never commanded their own ongoing. Most of their big character stuff happened in the pages of The Avengers, a team-book. It's hard to argue that the romance is a defining element of characters who never had their ongoing.

Nothing Stern wrote contradicts any of what you said. The fact is Janet filled a void in Hank's life left behind by Maria, and their relationship was based on Hank's belief that Janet was a second Maria.

I agree with you on the first part. It's true that neither Hank or Jan never commanded their own ongoing. I'm not mad at that, since a lot of characters work better in team books, and I think that's the case for those two.

I don't agree with the last sentence though. Janet wasn't filling a void IMO. Hank had lived for a long while without Maria. I'd say his superhero days as Ant-Man were more to fill a void than Jan herself. Hank didn't want to get involved with Jan at first, in TTA, and he later told Jocasta that it wasn't "love at first sight" for him when he met Jan, but that "he grew to love her very much so, more than anything in the world" (in MA, if I'm not mistaken, just before he became the Wasp II).

We have different interpretations of those events, and that's fine. I'm not trying to convince you here, don't get me wrong. I'm just explaining my point of view. I think it's nice to have those kinds of discussions (bonus points for not having insults thrown at Hank, or at me! LOL!)

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Always love a fellow number-lover

Thanks.

I didn't take into account the 2004-2012 period because one of them was MIA during those time (either lost in the Microverse or replaced by a Skrull). As I said, it wouldn't be fair to take those years into consideration since one or the other was clearly unavailable (i.e. not published).

Well I think it should be included. Because it establishes that no writer or editor has had interest in reviving them since 2004. And since 2004, Hank and Janet haven't been in a relationship together (though as you mention it was vague before that). Kurt Busiek was the last one invested in that but after him no one.

I think this all shows to prove one could really interpret numbers in very different ways

I don't think there's a doubt on the fact that Hank and Janet were introduced to be a couple, and that they were envisioned as a superhero couple by Lee and Kirby. The debate is whether the changes the characters have undergone since then, which have developed and altered them, should be allowed to stick or not. Because if it's allowed to stick, then Hank cannot be a superhero anymore, and he and Janet are effectively done as a couple. A lot of people don't like that a Lee-Kirby era character and creation has become irrevocable in terms of being reset to the versions that they were originally introduced.

I personally have never entirely bought the cult of "characters as they were first introduced" because it runs contrary to reality in its assumptions (i.e. the character's first introduction is inherently the state that can be and should be reproduced because more often than not it cannot) and while you should maintain some amount of consistency and so on, there's a point beyond which ignoring the stuff that happened is way more inconsistent than hitting a reset button.

I agree with you on the first part. It's true that neither Hank or Jan never commanded their own ongoing. I'm not mad at that, since a lot of characters work better in team books, and I think that's the case for those two.

Well if they work better as characters in team books, then it follows that they don't inherently work together.

[Frontier]

Well I think it should be included. Because it establishes that no writer or editor has had interest in reviving them since 2004. And since 2004, Hank and Janet haven't been in a relationship together (though as you mention it was vague before that). Kurt Busiek was the last one invested in that but after him no one.

I think Vision and Wanda haven't been together even longer than that, but the MCU thought that relationship was viable to adapt.

I don't think there's a doubt on the fact that Hank and Janet were introduced to be a couple, and that they were envisioned as a superhero couple by Lee and Kirby. The debate is whether the changes the characters have undergone since then, which have developed and altered them, should be allowed to stick or not. Because if it's allowed to stick, then Hank cannot be a superhero anymore, and he and Janet are effectively done as a couple. A lot of people don't like that a Lee-Kirby era character and creation has become irrevocable in terms of being reset to the versions that they were originally introduced.

I personally have never entirely bought the cult of "characters as they were first introduced" because it runs contrary to reality in its assumptions (i.e. the character's first introduction is inherently the state that can be and should be reproduced because more often than not it cannot) and while you should maintain some amount of consistency and so on, there's a point beyond which ignoring the stuff that happened is way more inconsistent than hitting a reset button.

But having those changes stick did not prevent Hank Pym from still being a Superhero or him and Janet being a couple again.

Well if they work better as characters in team books, then it follows that they don't inherently work together.

I...don't quite follow the logic .

[Sutekh]

Hank Pym is a fundamentally sad character. He was a shy wallflower, then he met the love of his wife in Maria Trovaya and she got him to open up, and was his equal. And then she died tragically, and he tried to recreate that with Janet and that didn't work.

What's odd about that is that, as I remember it, Hank was portrayed as the absent-minded scientist with zero interest in that sort of thing, and *Janet* was very much the aggressor in that relationship. He didn't seem to be 'trying to recreate' anything, she was very much hot for teacher, and both insinuated herself into his life, and into his adventures, becoming his partner in both senses of the word (and, quite possibly, the driving force behind him becoming a superhero, since she was the adventurer at heart, and he was more comfortable puttering around in a lab, it seemed).

It was a dynamic played out with Reed and Sue, back then, as well, with Reed the clueless scientist and Sue focused on getting him across the finish line to the altar. It was a shallow portrayal for all concerned, all the men being dismissive and focused on their work, and all the women being concerned entirely with bagging a husband, but those were the times.

[PCN24454]

It's funny that his origin story shows that they weren't even planning on making him a regular character, but here he is now.

[Mary Jay]

Well I think it should be included. Because it establishes that no writer or editor has had interest in reviving them since 2004. And since 2004, Hank and Janet haven't been in a relationship together (though as you mention it was vague before that). Kurt Busiek was the last one invested in that but after him no one.

Fair point about no one being invested in reviving the characters. I would point out though that from 2004-2009 Hank was actually a Skrull, but no one knew. For the plotline of Secret Invasion, no writer could possibly bring back the real Hank during that time. As for 2009-2012 where Jan was missing, you're right. No one seemed interested to bring her back, unfortunately Same goes for the last five years where Hank has been missing.

I don't think there's a doubt on the fact that Hank and Janet were introduced to be a couple, and that they were envisioned as a superhero couple by Lee and Kirby. The debate is whether the changes the characters have undergone since then, which have developed and altered them, should be allowed to stick or not. Because if it's allowed to stick, then Hank cannot be a superhero anymore, and he and Janet are effectively done as a couple. A lot of people don't like that a Lee-Kirby era character and creation has become irrevocable in terms of being reset to the versions that they were originally introduced.

I personally have never entirely bought the cult of "characters as they were first introduced" because it runs contrary to reality in its assumptions (i.e. the character's first introduction is inherently the state that can be and should be reproduced because more often than not it cannot) and while you should maintain some amount of consistency and so on, there's a point beyond which ignoring the stuff that happened is way more inconsistent than hitting a reset button.

The thing is, they were not. Hank was introduced before Jan, and had all sorts of adventures before she came onboard. As soon as she was created though, yes, I do think writers at the time saw them as an item, and inseperable.

I agree with characters evolving. I don't see however that the evolution of Hank as a character somehow prevents him from being a superhero. Whether they are done as a couple is irrelevent for the time being since Hank is dead. Jan does seem keen on keeping his memory close though, by running his company and acting as a mother-figure to his daughter (which by the way suffered a similar bout of manic episode and did the exact same thing to Jan that Hank had done... but that's an entire different debate not relevant to this thread).

I don't debate whether or not Jan and Hank should be back together if ever Hank was to come back. Honestly, at this point, I just want him back and be respected in the superhero community. The way Jan has been written in the last few years, I'm honestly not sure she would be a good fit for him. It does pain me to say that.

Well if they work better as characters in team books, then it follows that they don't inherently work together.

I...don't quite follow the logic .

I'm afraid I don't follow either...

What's odd about that is that, as I remember it, Hank was portrayed as the absent-minded scientist with zero interest in that sort of thing, and *Janet* was very much the aggressor in that relationship. He didn't seem to be 'trying to recreate' anything, she was very much hot for teacher, and both insinuated herself into his life, and into his adventures, becoming his partner in both senses of the word (and, quite possibly, the driving force behind him becoming a superhero, since she was the adventurer at heart, and he was more comfortable puttering around in a lab, it seemed).

It was a dynamic played out with Reed and Sue, back then, as well, with Reed the clueless scientist and Sue focused on getting him across the finish line to the altar. It was a shallow portrayal for all concerned, all the men being dismissive and focused on their work, and all the women being concerned entirely with bagging a husband, but those were the times.

Hank was already a superhero before meeting Jan... and I don't think Jan was that "aggressive" as you say in her pursuit of Hank's heart. But as you said, those were the times...

[chamber-music]

Maria and Janet both pushed Hank in a way. They got him to open up to things he might not of done if they were not in his life. I think the scientific adventurer part of him was always in side of him. Hank has an innate curiosity and inquisitiveness to him.

I think it would be nice to see Hank Pym return to comics eventually. Marvel will probably give Ant-Man 3 writer Jeff Loveless a Hank returns mini of something in time for the third Ant-Man movie.

[XPac]

Maria and Janet both pushed Hank in a way. They got him to open up to things he might not of done if they were not in his life. I think the scientific adventurer part of him was always in side of him. Hank has an innate curiosity and inquisitiveness to him.

I think it would be nice to see Hank Pym return to comics eventually. Marvel will probably give Ant-Man 3 writer Jeff Loveless a Hank returns mini of something in time for the third Ant-Man movie.

No one REALLY dies in comics anymore. I'm 100% he comes back again. It's just a matter of a given writer having a story to tell.

In the meantime, a break might not be the worst thing in the world. They put the guy through the ringer. Maybe giving that a bit of time to breath will actually do him some favors.