Do writers hate Hank Pym Ant-Man?

[Ultimate Captain America]

Hank Pym is not a real orrson, he's a guy who shrinks himself and rides on ants, and even in the real world people who made the same mistake as Hank can make up for their actions and move on with their lives.

People like Chris Brown, Ike Turner, Warren Moon, or Phil Specter?

[Mary Jay]

People like Chris Brown, Ike Turner, Warren Moon, or Phil Specter?

Those people are deliberate, serial abusers. Somehow I doubt it compares when we take into account the complete history of the character of Hank Pym. 616 Hank Pym of course.

[XPac]

I honestly don't know if writers "hate" him or not. To me it would be kind of silly and strange that someone would hate a person that doesn't even exist.

Do some writers not know what to do with him? Probably. Some might also be hesitant to use him in fear of being labelled as being okay with domestic violence. We fans sure have been told that on many occasions.

There are things worth mentioning that people seem to forget or just don't know about. Hank and Jan got married in1968, and divorced in 1982. During that time, they were not always in publication but each time they were, they were shown as a loving couple, happy to be together. So the accident with the chemicals that "created" Yellowjacket, and the bout of manic that led to the infamous slap and the divorce are two separate things that happened almost fifteen years apart in publication. They are not related to one another.

Also, there was no mention of self-medication on Hank's part anywhere in the comic books, at anytime. He wasn't experimenting with self-treatment when he got into the accident that created YJ. The only time medication was mention was during Secret Invasion or Civil War (can't fully remember, sorry) where Skrull-Pym was shown with a bottle of anxiety pills, and at another time someone mentioned that "Hank" was on antidepressants. The only time we saw a clear mention of self-monitoring was during Avengers A.I., where Hank had devised a prodromal detection therapy where it would track his mood, behavior and so forth to try to predict when a manic cycle would appear. Nowhere is there any mention of chemical medication. Nowhere. Furthermore, I would add that Hank has never been a drunk (wasn't mentioned in this thread but it pops up from time to time). Through all the years I have read about him, I have never even seen him drunk.

There's also this thought that he's not been used in comics because of the slap, or that he can't be redeemed, it's too late for him, etc... It's easy to look at it from this angle now, with everything already published, but we seem to forget the actual amount of time that passes. First, yes, the slap. In 1982. Then that's true that he wasn't used for some time but he got back to WCA within a few years and was one of the most prominent members of the team. Then he came back to the East Coast Avengers, was involved in pretty much everything up to and including Heroes Reborn, Heroes Return, then Busiek's run that lasted quite some years. He was at the forefront in Civil War (it was a Skrull, but we didn't know that at the time), Secret Invasion, Mighty Avengers, several minis and events, Avengers Academy, Secret Avengers, etc... Heck, he was even part of the team that helped bring Cap back in Captain America Reborn. The truth is he's been present in one way or another all through Marvel History, up to Rage of Ultron. Funnily enough, that's about the time the first Ant-Man movie came out. Coincidence, or shenanigans from Marvel? I honestly don't know.

So the slap is not an excuse from Marvel not to use him because they have used him plenty since then, and frankly no one cared that much. He was a good character that most enjoyed reading about. Only in recent years has this whole conversation started again, not sure why to be honest. I think it might have to do with younger writers who are not well-versed in earlier canon and decided to dig out old, resolved stories to bring drama forward. And yes, the story was resolved, by Busiek. Anyone who has read the "Ultron Unlimited" storyarc will know this to be true.



Completely agree with you there



Scott was chosen for the Ant-Man movie because Edgar Wright wanted to make a Scott Lang movie. The first comic book he read as a kid was Marvel Feature #47 and he really liked the character and his storyarc.



Great to see I'm not the only one thinking this!!

I've argued this before, but I think Busiek actually unresolved Hanks issues and led to the can of worms being opened up again.

The Crossing retconned Hanks breakdowns to Kang attempting to mind control him. And victims of mind control usually get a free pass in comics. Post Crossing Hank was in the clear for quite some time. Him and Jan seemed good.

Avengers Forever retcons the Crossing so that Hanks Breakdowns were back on Hank, and immediately after Busieks run we had Austin, Bendis and McDuffie all break up Han and Hank and bring up his issues again. Busiek stripped Hank of his free pass and opened the flood gates.

[legion_quest]

Those people are deliberate, serial abusers. Somehow I doubt it compares when we take into account the complete history of the character of Hank Pym. 616 Hank Pym of course.

People don'r care about the mental health aspect. They want their black and white villain, so for many, Hank is condemned forever based on an artists mistake

[Mary Jay]

I've argued this before, but I think Busiek actually unresolved Hanks issues and led to the can of worms being opened up again.

The Crossing retconned Hanks breakdowns to Kang attempting to mind control him. And victims of mind control usually get a free pass in comics. Post Crossing Hank was in the clear for quite some time. Him and Jan seemed good.

Avengers Forever retcons the Crossing so that Hanks Breakdowns were back on Hank, and immediately after Busieks run we had Austin, Bendis and McDuffie all break up Han and Hank and bring up his issues again. Busiek stripped Hank of his free pass and opened the flood gates.

I would argue that when The Crossing came around, Hank didn't need the "free pass" as you put it. I don't think it was a big issue in those days. Granted I wasn't in the comic book community at that point, so I can't say for sure.

But if I understand the reasoning, being mind-controled (or having an outside influence) cleared Hank of wrong-doing. Having a mental illness brings Hank back to a guilty sentence. Somehow I'm really uncomfortable with that reasoning. It's basically saying that if Hank has a mental illness, it's entirely his own fault.

Some would argue that not getting treatment or help is on him, and I would agree with that. Nevertheless, realizing that you need help, acknowledging it, and actually ask for help, is probably one of the hardest thing to do. I know it might be difficult to understand, but trust me, it is so, so hard.

I'd grant you that Austin, Bendis et al. did great disservice to Hank through the years.

[Mary Jay]

People don'r care about the mental health aspect. They want their black and white villain, so for many, Hank is condemned forever based on an artists mistake

It sure seems that way.

I find it a bit ironic that, in this age of representation, someone is still villified, five years after his death, for basically having a mental illness. I personally find great comfort in reading about a man who, while struggling against himself, his so-called friends, and society in general, still gets up every day to try and make the world a better place, even if it's just for one person. This was the kind of representation I needed, and I would love to have it again.

[Snoop Dogg]

I've argued this before, but I think Busiek actually unresolved Hanks issues and led to the can of worms being opened up again.

The Crossing retconned Hanks breakdowns to Kang attempting to mind control him. And victims of mind control usually get a free pass in comics. Post Crossing Hank was in the clear for quite some time. Him and Jan seemed good.

Avengers Forever retcons the Crossing so that Hanks Breakdowns were back on Hank, and immediately after Busieks run we had Austin, Bendis and McDuffie all break up Han and Hank and bring up his issues again. Busiek stripped Hank of his free pass and opened the flood gates.

Busiek did that because the free pass made him a worse character. It does not need whitewashing or retconning. His mistakes and how he deals with make him a better character. It is not a problem to be resolved.

[XPac]

Busiek did that because the free pass made him a worse character. It does not need whitewashing or retconning. His mistakes and how he deals with make him a better character. It is not a problem to be resolved.

I'm not saying it was wrong to take away Hanks free pass ... I'm merely arguing for better or for worse, it opened up the flood gates again on a matter which was largely moot at this point.

[Michael Watkins]

if you think that he's vilified for having a mental illness, you're fooling yourself. who vilifies Moon Knight?

[Michael Watkins]

These aren't retcons, Hank having a break down, Jan using it to manipulate him and the hit being an accident were all apart of those stories as they were written then, anything that makes the situation and Hank look worse is a retcon.

a breakdown isn't an excuse. a lot of abusive people harm others when frustrated or because of insecurity. he hit Jan because she got in his way. and he avoided all of the consequences of doing so except divorce.

the "manipulation" was recommended to her by a SHIELD psychiatrist. Pym's a big boy. he could have backed out of that marriage any time he chose.

[Zero Hunter]

When did these two happen?

[jetengine]

^she brought it on herself? sure you want to walk into that one? and **** Namor. it's not like only one person can be condemned at once.

I'm not saying she brought it on herself, just that she's not exactly lily white here either. They literally had to retcon her being told by a therapist to marry him to help stabilise him to avoid the on panel "Yeah I knew he was having a schizophrenic breakdown but I wanted to marry him and didnt care for his wishes in his normal mental state" statement she made.

[Skullkid]

a breakdown isn't an excuse. a lot of abusive people harm others when frustrated or because of insecurity. he hit Jan because she got in his way. and he avoided all of the consequences of doing so except divorce.

the "manipulation" was recommended to her by a SHIELD psychiatrist. Pym's a big boy. he could have backed out of that marriage any time he chose.

Do you have anything to actually add to the conversation?
So far all your posts just boil to the same thing, which is pretty much you ignoring Hank's problems and trying to put it all on him.

[Frontier]

There's been a Pymtron story every year by like three different writers, so I think it's really just that there is no one high up on the ladder pulling really hard for the character to come back (an inevitable symptom of downsizing the Avengers line and giving the Pym family less relevance to it), or there is already a plan in place for him to come back (plans are made in advance) so some others want their shot at the Pymtron concept before it goes away. Dan Slott already wrote a glorified Hank Pym solo, he probably didn't put Pymtron in his story which featured Jocasta and Wasp to put some disrespek on Hank's name.

At this point people use Pymtron just to use Ultron.

Pretty much. The Peter and Reed incidents are forgotten because those are two very popular characters with decades worth of stories and memorable moments, while Hank hitting Jan and creating Ultron are probably the two most notable things he's ever done. Even if you've never read a comic with Pym, there's a good chance you're aware he hit his wife if you travel in geek circles because it gets brought up a lot.

In contrast we have strong portrayals of Hank in popular media, like Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes and the Ant-Man movies where he's a flawed and well-meaning individual who is firmly a hero.

Obviously the slap was excised from these portrayals (although EMH still had the mental breakdown that created Yellowjacket), but but it still showed more care for Hank Pym then the comics have as of late.

[Mary Jay]

I'm not saying she brought it on herself, just that she's not exactly lily white here either. They literally had to retcon her being told by a therapist to marry him to help stabilise him to avoid the on panel "Yeah I knew he was having a schizophrenic breakdown but I wanted to marry him and didnt care for his wishes in his normal mental state" statement she made.

It wasn't a retcon, rather a retelling of the original story, which still stands and is still canon.

Hank had tried to ask Jan to marry him twice before that incident. Once in the TTA book, where he even got so far as to buy her a ring, but she thought it was a good idea to make him jealous by pretending some dude wanted to ask her to marry him, so he dropped the idea. The second time, they were attacked by Vision (his first appearance), and again the plan didn't go through as planned.

The thing is Hank wanted to marry Jan. Maybe Jan sounded shallow and a bit manipulative in those days, but we have to remember it was written in the 60s, when women were still written as husband-seeking girls. She has grown so much since then. And I'm sure that if he didn't want to stay married to her, he could have easily walked out of the marriage. He didn't, because he loved her.