Do writers hate Hank Pym Ant-Man?

[Ultimate Captain America]

All this is a bit weird. In any other genre, a domestic abuser is a domestic abuser and that's it: he's a horrible person, and at some point he gets the fate he deserves (or not, if the work is really dark). Period. Pym must be the only case where a fictional domestic abuser has people rooting for him, trying to find excuses for him, asking for redemption and treating him as a misunderstood moral champion. Fortunately, most writers and editors know better than that.

[IMG][/IMG]

[mugiwara]

All this is a bit weird. In any other genre, a domestic abuser is a domestic abuser and that's it: he's a horrible person, and at some point he gets the fate he deserves (or not, if the work is really dark). Period. Pym must be the only case where a fictional domestic abuser has people rooting for him, trying to find excuses for him, asking for redemption and treating him as a misunderstood moral champion. Fortunately, most writers and editors know better than that.

Black Widow murdered innocent people when working for the KGB.
Wolverine maimed, and probably killed regular joes in bar scuffles. Not to mention stabbing or trying to stab fellow X-Men.
Iron Man was a weapon seller.
Rogue destroyed an innocent woman's mind and was only sorry about it because it backfired.
In the MCU, Valkyrie was a slave trader and the Hulk slaughtered those slaves for fun and giggles.

Only a couple of them showed as much guilt as Pym and did as much efforts to atone.
They are still considered as heroes. People love them. Their fellow heroes love them.

[Mary Jay]

All this is a bit weird. In any other genre, a domestic abuser is a domestic abuser and that's it: he's a horrible person, and at some point he gets the fate he deserves (or not, if the work is really dark). Period. Pym must be the only case where a fictional domestic abuser has people rooting for him, trying to find excuses for him, asking for redemption and treating him as a misunderstood moral champion. Fortunately, most writers and editors know better than that.

Dude, these are literally two different characters, in two different universes. Do you think I would argue with you about the fact that Ultimate Pym is a despicable character? Of course not.

But main universe Pym never did those horrible things that Ult-Pym has done.

It's like saying I hate Black Widow because she murdered Clint Barton's entire family.

[Skullkid]

All this is a bit weird. In any other genre, a domestic abuser is a domestic abuser and that's it: he's a horrible person, and at some point he gets the fate he deserves (or not, if the work is really dark). Period. Pym must be the only case where a fictional domestic abuser has people rooting for him, trying to find excuses for him, asking for redemption and treating him as a misunderstood moral champion. Fortunately, most writers and editors know better than that.

[IMG][/IMG]

You're just making it clear you actually don't know anything about Hank Pym.

[Ultimate Captain America]

The point of that image is not Pym himself, but the way writers and editors treat Pym. Alternate or not, no image illustrates the point better than any other.

[Mary Jay]

The point of that image is not Pym himself, but the way writers and editors treat Pym. Alternate or not, no image illustrates the point better than any other.

The quote you put with the image you posted had nothing to do with writers or editors treating Pym badly...

I'm sorry to say I unfortunately don't see your point. But we all have our favorites, and our less-than-favorites, and I'm not here to tell you you should like or dislike a character.

It is true though that the Ultimate line of comics has done more damage to 616 Pym than anything that has ever been written in the mainstream universe, which is kind of surprising in itself, as they are two different universes and two different characters. I think it comes down to this, more than a case of writers or editors not liking him.

[gurkle]

I would say less that writers hate Hank Pym, and more that they really don't know much about him.

Pym is one of those characters who could never carry his own comic and so almost all his important character development took place in "Avengers" and "West Coast Avengers" - i.e. the books that were distinctly uncool in the '80s and much of the '90s compared to the X-Men (or even Fantastic Four when Byrne was doing it). To be a Pym fan you almost have to be a fan of the old-school Avengers comics, and some writers are, but not nearly as many, probably, as X-Men or Spider-Man fans.

There are a lot of complaints like this about characters whose home was mostly in the Avengers and who were cleared out of the book for a while after "Avengers Disassembled." Which is why you get writers who only seem to know Scarlet Witch from "House of M" or who don't know much about Hawkeye from before the Fraction version. It's not that they haven't read any other comics, but they don't necessarily feel them in their bones. So most writers are aware that there's more to Hank than hitting his wife that one time, but that's different from knowing what else is interesting about him.

Hank has it worse than those other characters because his lowest moment actually occurred in the old-school Avengers book at the hands of a writer (Jim Shooter) who genuinely seemed to dislike the character. But it's a problem that a lot of these Avengers B-listers suffer, especially in a period like the current one where they are mostly locked out of the Avengers book.

[DrNewGod]

First off: Hank Pym was not created as a domestic abuser. A (weak, needing drama) story recast him as a domestic abuser. Admittedly, his years of being written as patronizing the Wasp didn't help.

Second, Pym was a problematic character from Day Two. He was created as a '50s Sci-Fi Movie Knock-off. He was retrofitted as a superhero when the FF took off. He was given a GF and the growing powers as desperate efforts to make him keep up. He was falling behind in a crowd that included Reed Richards, Tony Stark, and T'Challa.

When it was clear he had no starring roles left to play in the post Them world, what was left to him? Deconstruction.

Honestly, given some of his finer turns (like cracking the original Sons of the Serpent), it's kind of a shame. But, he wasn't created with the care that gave such adaptability to Spider-Man, Iron Man, and Black Panther.

[king of hybrids]

I think the problem is that Marvel forgets that they made Hank an irredeemable dirtbag enough times that they’ve foolishly put him front and centre of comic runs, or even cartoons where he’s a hero*, as well as the MCU (lousy father though), only for things to get awkward once someone with a slightly more adjusted set of ethics and/or a need for drama comes along and reminds everyone.

They should have gone with the original plan of making Hank the big bad of the Ant-man film things would have been simpler thanks to Synergy.

*i acknowledge that, obviously, none of the cartoon versions of Hank emotionally or physically abused Janet.

[Mary Jay]

I think the problem is that Marvel forgets that they made Hank an irredeemable dirtbag enough times that they’ve foolishly put him front and centre of comic runs, or even cartoons where he’s a hero*, as well as the MCU (lousy father though), only for things to get awkward once someone with a slightly more adjusted set of ethics and/or a need for drama comes along and reminds everyone.

Honestly, I've read a pretty big lot of publication with Hank in them, and he never came to me as an irredeemable dirtbag as you put it. I'm going to have to ask for examples about this.

They should have gone with the original plan of making Hank the big bad of the Ant-man film things would have been simpler thanks to Synergy.

To my knowledge, this had never been the plan for the Ant-Man movie. Edgar Wright wanted to adapt the Marvel Feature #47, which was the origin story of the second Ant-Man, Scott Lang. There was never question that Hank would be the villain of the movie.

[Mary Jay]

I would say less that writers hate Hank Pym, and more that they really don't know much about him.

Pym is one of those characters who could never carry his own comic and so almost all his important character development took place in "Avengers" and "West Coast Avengers" - i.e. the books that were distinctly uncool in the '80s and much of the '90s compared to the X-Men (or even Fantastic Four when Byrne was doing it). To be a Pym fan you almost have to be a fan of the old-school Avengers comics, and some writers are, but not nearly as many, probably, as X-Men or Spider-Man fans.

There are a lot of complaints like this about characters whose home was mostly in the Avengers and who were cleared out of the book for a while after "Avengers Disassembled." Which is why you get writers who only seem to know Scarlet Witch from "House of M" or who don't know much about Hawkeye from before the Fraction version. It's not that they haven't read any other comics, but they don't necessarily feel them in their bones. So most writers are aware that there's more to Hank than hitting his wife that one time, but that's different from knowing what else is interesting about him.

Hank has it worse than those other characters because his lowest moment actually occurred in the old-school Avengers book at the hands of a writer (Jim Shooter) who genuinely seemed to dislike the character. But it's a problem that a lot of these Avengers B-listers suffer, especially in a period like the current one where they are mostly locked out of the Avengers book.

Interesting theory. I actually agree with you on a lot of it.

I always thought that, like many other characters, Pym is mostly a team book character. Given a good writer and a good pitch, he could probably sustain an ongoing up to a point, but realistically it wouldn't last more than 12 issues, like Avengers A.I. did. He does better part of a team, always has been. But honestly I never would have thought that Hawkeye, for example, could sustain a solo book, but here we are so... I suppose anything is possible.

[Sutekh]

Pym is one of those characters who could never carry his own comic and so almost all his important character development took place in "Avengers" and "West Coast Avengers" - [SNIP]
There are a lot of complaints like this about characters whose home was mostly in the Avengers and who were cleared out of the book for a while after "Avengers Disassembled." Which is why you get writers who only seem to know Scarlet Witch from "House of M" or who don't know much about Hawkeye from before the Fraction version. It's not that they haven't read any other comics, but they don't necessarily feel them in their bones.

This is actually why I consider regular Avengers who don't generally have their own titles, or 'lives' outside of the Avengers books, like Hank and Janet and Wanda and Simon and Vision, to be *more* iconic Avengers than Thor, Captain America or Iron Man, who exist and operate as often outside of the Avengers, and who have signature events and accomplishments (like the Armor Wars or Simonson's run on Thor) that kind of define their character, without having much to do with being an Avenger.

The Avengers kind of are their life, as far as the comics go. Thor, Cap and Iron Man would exist without the Avengers.

[Frontier]

Dude, these are literally two different characters, in two different universes. Do you think I would argue with you about the fact that Ultimate Pym is a despicable character? Of course not.

But main universe Pym never did those horrible things that Ult-Pym has done.

It's like saying I hate Black Widow because she murdered Clint Barton's entire family.

It's like comparing Ultimate Cap to regular Cap.

[scribbleMind]

I remember when Hickman's Secret Wars were in play, many of us were musing about the possibility of Secret Wars Hank replacing the original Hank. Honestly, it would have not only have fixed the stigma against Hank, but it would have been way better than this Pymtron non-arc, and there is precedent. Probably would have worked better than Red Wolf at the very least.

[Skullkid]

I think the problem is that Marvel forgets that they made Hank an irredeemable dirtbag

Give me some examples here, because that's not true at all.

They should have gone with the original plan of making Hank the big bad of the Ant-man film things would have been simpler thanks to Synergy.

Give me proof on that too.
Because it just sounds like you're making things up.

The point of that image is not Pym himself, but the way writers and editors treat Pym. Alternate or not, no image illustrates the point better than any other.

No it doesn't.
Especially when you're trying to use the Ultimate version and everyone knows the Ultimate counterparts are all dirtbags compared to their normal 616 versions with the only exception being Peter Parker.