Millar's intention with the Ultimates were to do a satire of the Avengers. He intentionally made them extreme versions of their 616 counterparts.
Captain America (Jingoistic man from the forties)
Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver (incestuous relationship)
Black Widow (anti-american child murderer)
Hulk (Cannibal)
Wasp (eats bugs and is bulimic)
Hawkeye (sadomasochist murderer)
Someone in Editorial should of just put a hold on the whole abuse topic and constant redemption cycle years ago and just have writers only use him if they are bringing fresh ideas or stories.
Hank was never going to be the villain in the Ant-Man movie. He was always intended to be Scott Lang's mentor and the original Ant-Man. the original director and writer Edgar Wright brought talked about it a number of times when he was attached to the film.
Edgar supposedly had his own made for film villain that wasn't from the comics.
The only thing that seemingly changed was that Hank Pym was possibly going to die at the end of in Edgar's version instead of just being shot and injured in the MCU Reed film.
I don't think Hank Pym has ever been a outright villain in the comics. Even when Hank had a full on mental breakdown or temporarily sided with Kang, he wasn't outright evil. Even the Pymtron thing has been ambiguous.
Is Hank a dirtbag though? The character has been depicted as making some serious mistakes but his personality when he is mentally well is generally a caring bookish guy who could sometimes be insecure. When he was Giant-Man/Yellowjacket he could be pretty cocky but his not some no morals having evil guy that is a jerk to everyone.
Last edited by chamber-music; 12-27-2019 at 02:23 AM.
Last edited by ETMike1988; 12-27-2019 at 02:31 AM.
hank's bipolar disorder is a retcon. i know it makes people uncomfortable. but Hank was abusive because he was deeply insecure about his relationship and his worth compared to the other Avengers. he's just a guy with a fragile ego. that mental illness stuff was slapped on much later to give him an "out." the character who writers really hate is Janet. otherwise, they'd stop trying to give Pym an out. bipolar disorder isn't something that gets you a free pass in the real world. if someone had a bipolar flip out on this board, they would be banned. would people be defending Hank if he had raped Janet while manic?
and she owns up to it. pym just whines about how his reputation was damaged.
yes. that's how he got the nickname "psycho" from Cyclops. it was a term of endearment. Wolverine hasn't been given a pass for the horrible stuff that he's done. the writers are quite cruel to him. imagine if Pym were charred to a cinder or flayed alive in most altercations. Logan has, literally, been consigned to Hell before.
his company has built weapons that the military purchased. there's nothing illegal or unethical about his business practices. hell, they made him secretary of defense at one point.
people probably shouldn't like Rogue. if she were a guy, there would definitely be people pointing out that she often doesn't wait for consent before kissing people (not to mention the stealing of minds).
no idea what you're talking about.
did he seem guilty after giving her a black eye? i don't remember that. i remember him being angry that she stopped his robot. if you're talking about the begging that he did later, it's not unusual for an abusive guy to try to manipulate their victim. he probably thought that she would just give him the same pass that his fans have.
"Do writers hate Hank Pym Ant-Man?"
answer: no. he's a fictional character. but he's also a really problematic character to portray as a hero. it sends a very bad message about abuse victims and people suffering with real mental disorders. this is something that Marvel and Disney generally handle better. i get that the character appeals to the nostalgia of people who grew up in the 50s and 60s (or only know the sanitized version from the cartoons). but his archetype hasn't aged well. and it took a hard turn into something ugly during the 80s. they had their chance to make it right. but, at this point, the only way to salvage Pym is to use one from another reality or earlier point in time. anything else is just rubbing it in Janet's face. that's me acknowledging every one of his problems. he is damaged goods. this is my opinion.
That's not you addressing anything.
That's just more you saying the character is bad and there's nothing to be done with him, and trying to do so is somehow disrespectful to Janet.
Yeah, Disney tends to run with the old trope of treating mental-illness like a sin that is purged by character-development and epiphanies rather than a permanent medical condition that the victim must learn to deal with.
I'm not sure how writing stories about one fictional character is rubbing anything in the face of another fictional characters face. Neither character is real and thus don't have feelings.
I'm sure victims of domestic abuse have far more pressing issues to be upset about than a fictional character's actions in a comic book storyline 40 years ago. Honestly I don't think most people have even read the whole story arc in which the abuse took place. People were not boycotting Marvel the past three decades because they published stories about Hank Pym being a superhero and I doubt they would if Marvel did so in the future.
Pym took responsibility. Hank apologized, quit the Avengers, opened a women's shelter dedicated to Janet and so on.
Hank and Janet even dated again in the comics post slap and a couple of writers had plans for them to remarry.
The whole Pym backlash really kicked off with Avenger's dissembled and has been building over subsequent years with a few writers depicting characters like Iron Man and Captain Marvel still having resentment towards Pym despite the fact they had been on teams with him in the past without being shown to have issues with him.
Hank's mental illness isn't a retcon.
When his wife Maria 'died' he had a mental breakdown way back in that sixties Tales To Astonish story.
There was the whole Yellowjacket 'split personality' that developed from exposure to gases that induced "schizophrenia".
Hank's depression which lead him to almost commit suicide.
At various times throughout the character's history he has been shown to suffer from bouts of mental illness.
Marvel has not always been good at depicting or diagnosing Hank Pym's mental illness but has always been there. Even in the actual arc involving the slap it depicted Hank's deteriorating mental health.
I'm not sure what hypothetical situations have to do with anything but I doubt people would still be interested in reading about the Pym character as a hero if he raped anyone. The character didn't so I'm not sure why it is relevant. Both Hank and Janet would benefit from permanently moving on from the abuse storyline and having stories going forward just focus on new things for both of them but it is a juicy bone some writer just can't let go or feel the need to constantly address.
Last edited by chamber-music; 12-27-2019 at 09:05 AM.
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True. People get carried away with depicting Hank as an abuser -- when it was limited to the very lowest point in his life. I'll never feel that scene was organic -- I read it as the time and it didn't ring true. But you have to accept it as it was written -- and judge Hank based on how he acted since then. I really tire of people being so condescending for something someone did or said 10, 20, 30 years ago -- when it's not part of their current behavior.
Virtually everytime mental illness comes up in a superhero story, it's for no other reason than to make a villain or antihero look more disturbing. And that's when they aren't treating it as a weakness for a hero to be ashamed of.
If Pym is an offensive depiction of the mentally ill he is far from the only example in marvel.
Last edited by Agent Z; 12-27-2019 at 11:36 AM.
*wrong buzzer sound* that works on people who haven't read the books.
Pym did not take responsibility. he was exposed because she had a clearly bruised face. he then later took Jan into the hallway of avengers mansion and tried to say that what happened "wasn't that bad." he also had his fingers crossed that it was immortus tampering. but true responsibility was never taken. he apparently thought he was smarter than the psychiatric community. instead of taking his meds, he built a game room. and look where he is now.
Hank didn't quit the Avengers. he ran away when his plan to shame the Avengers out of voting him out blew up in his face. he basically went and hid after throwing a tantrum. it was shameful. he tried to run away again but Firebird stopped him from pulling the trigger.
he opened a women's shelter a good decade after beating up his wife. and it was triggered by her being killed by a skrull wearing his face. that skrull was in a position to do so because Pym decided to hurt Jan (again) by sleeping with an undergraduate. this is nothing to brag about. it's actually kind of tacky for him to open that shelter in her name given his prior refusal to take responsibility for harming her. and since you brought it up, i've seen plenty of people in this thread say that Pym isn't an abuser. then what was the significance of him opening a women's shelter? think about it.
here's the pseudo-apology. where is bipolar illness mentioned? people are saying that it's not a retcon.
Last edited by Michael Watkins; 12-27-2019 at 11:39 AM.