Choose: Samurai or ninja

[Kirika]

Which would you choose to be?

[Nik Hasta]

Can we get some more context here?

Is this we're sent back in time to be one of those things? Do we get the skills of said things? If the latter, by what metric are we gauging the skills?

[Kirika]

Can we get some more context here?

Is this we're sent back in time to be one of those things? Do we get the skills of said things? If the latter, by what metric are we gauging the skills?

Yes, you get the skill and training of either one.

[BitVyper]

If fictional: Ninja for magic.

If real life: Samurai for money and also because they definitely actually existed as a singular thing instead of just being a blanket concept applied to everything from monks to guerillas.

[The Arbiter]

If fictional: Ninja for magic.

If real life: Samurai for money and also because they definitely actually existed as a singular thing instead of just being a blanket concept applied to everything from monks to guerillas.

What he said.

[Totoro Man]

LOL. BitVyper beat me to it. this would presumably be restricted to fiction... since there is no historical evidence that proves 'ninja' existed in an organized fashion.

IIRC, basically, any covert (and disposable) mercenary could qualify as a 'ninja'. like BitVyper said... that could be a rogue monk, a bitter pencil-pushing bureaucrat, or a wife who's bitter that her husband is cheating on her.... basically ANYBODY that spies on people for the government or higher power in exchange for money or protection. not an especially glamorous or promising career path!

the closest thing I can see in the historical records (in English language sources that I've read) to the mythological 'ninja' would be Dai Li (China), Kenji Doihara (Japan), Shiro Ishii (Japan), Lavrentiy Beria (Soviet Union), and Vasily Blokhin (Soviet Union).

these guys were all high ranking members of their military/governments. they had their hands in drug dealing, kidnapping, murder, extortion, torture, etc. they were absolutely vile specimens of humanity.

[Guy1]

Going with Ninjas.

[BitVyper]

LOL. BitVyper beat me to it. this would presumably be restricted to fiction... since there is no historical evidence that proves 'ninja' existed in an organized fashion.

IIRC, basically, any covert (and disposable) mercenary could qualify as a 'ninja'. like BitVyper said... that could be a rogue monk, a bitter pencil-pushing bureaucrat, or a wife who's bitter that her husband is cheating on her.... basically ANYBODY that spies on people for the government or higher power in exchange for money or protection. not an especially glamorous or promising career path!

the closest thing I can see in the historical records (in English language sources that I've read) to the mythological 'ninja' would be Dai Li (China), Kenji Doihara (Japan), Shiro Ishii (Japan), Lavrentiy Beria (Soviet Union), and Vasily Blokhin (Soviet Union).

these guys were all high ranking members of their military/governments. they had their hands in drug dealing, kidnapping, murder, extortion, torture, etc. they were absolutely vile specimens of humanity.

Now I mean, I WILL say that the Sengoku Jidai is a crazy enough time for something like the romantic idea of ninjas to have existed. There were so many little fiefdoms crammed right up against each other and fighting, and we know they were using all kinds of dumb tricks that sound totally made up to undermine each other, but I'm not sure all the major elements that comprise "ninja" were in any single group or individual. I tend to think of possibly secret civilian militias that might have been used for various tactics, because to me for it to be a ninja, it has to be low in social rank, like the janitor who hears everything because no one thinks of him as a threat. THAT doesn't even really fit with some accounts though, so yeah, like you say the concept is too broad.

Then again, when you take just the weird craziness of the Sengoku period and add in a caste system, the idea of a family of professional saboteurs or covert soldiers or whatever with no social rank may not be as far fetched as it sounds. The mysticism isn't that hard to imagine being layered on top. But then I think I've heard of like, one primary source ever related to ninjas, and I can't remember what it is and I never actually saw it.

[Shai-Hulud]

Yes, you get the skill and training of either one.

Samurai.

In addition to sword and bow, the ideal Samurai was supposed to be a refined gentleman, expected to have skills in etiquette, meditation, calligraphy and other disciplines.

They're not just combat monsters, but embodiments of a culture. Ideally, at any rate... though obviously not in each case.

The same kind of culture and romance is associated with Arthurian knighthood. If only ideally.

Obviously, I'm being generous with the "get the skills and training" aspect of this.

[Shellhead]

Samurai enjoy a very privileged position in their society, though the society itself is a maze of tradition and obligation that I would find suffocating. Still, I guess I would rather live in the gilded cage then struggle along as a commoner with a secret identity.

Semi-off topic: I like the way the Rokugan setting handled the ninja. There were layers and layers to the ninja, and the outermost layer served as a critique of the stereotypical ninja. Black pajamas and crap gear (especially the crap sword known as the ninjato), serving strictly as a distraction while a real ninja in disguise performed the actual espionage or assassination. The innermost layer of the ninja in Rokugan was something else altogether, both primal and horrifying. Its power came from being the only thing that wasn't named by the gods.

[MichaelC]

Well the modern version of a ninja would be the CIA. The modern version of a Samurai would be some old money type with a proud military tradition and many family members who graduated from West Point. On average I'd rather be CIA.

[The MunchKING]

Ninjas stab things a lot and MAKE money. Samurai throw all my money away.

OK, that's just one power. Blade Grasp, while no Hamedo is WAY, WAY better than Sunken State, as that requires you to take damage rather than preventing all the damage in the first place.

Walking on Water though is way better than Swimming.

Dual Wielding gives you twice the weapons to mess with powerful effects, and Dual Grip just lets you wield one weapon two handed.

Ninja get Magic, Samarui had Bushido.

But here is the kicker that REALLY makes it a thing. Samurai have what has to be the best power in an FF Game ever... Whether it's FDraw, Cleave, or Iai Strike the phrase "kills ALL Enemies" or even it's little brother "instantly defeat one enemy" are music to the Adventurer's ears.

Of course that's just keeping it to my bailiwick of Final Fantasy. If we start throwing in OTHER systems well Things could get crazy.

[BitVyper]

Ninjas stab things a lot and MAKE money. Samurai throw all my money away.

On the other hand, gil toss is basically the ultimate power if you can afford to use it. Virtually a requirement for absurd low level runs. This is particularly significant for us, since we're not being geared, just trained, and gil toss only requires plain old money as opposed to weapons that may or may not exist in the scenario

Dual Wielding gives you twice the weapons to mess with powerful effects, and Dual Grip just lets you wield one weapon two handed.

Dual wielding's biggest benefit in the damage department is getting an extra hit to bypass the damage cap. Unless your training imposes a damage cap on you, that's not going to be as big of a factor. Plus since you're not being given a set of endgame swords, damage cap is unlikely to be a problem even if it IS imposed.

[The MunchKING]

On the other hand, gil toss is basically the ultimate power if you can afford to use it. Virtually a requirement for absurd low level runs. This is particularly significant for us, since we're not being geared, just trained, and gil toss only requires plain old money as opposed to weapons that may or may not exist in the scenario

It needs coins. How many coins do you carry on you?

Also both Ninja and Samurai can D-port if we're giving them access to Disgaea demon powers.

Dual wielding's biggest benefit in the damage department is getting an extra hit to bypass the damage cap. Unless your training imposes a damage cap on you, that's not going to be as big of a factor.

That's it's BIGGEST benefit, yes. But an extra shot at Stone with another Break Blade, or double the life drain with Blood Sabers shouldn't be overlooked.

Plus since you're not being given a set of endgame swords, damage cap is unlikely to be a problem even if it IS imposed.

Wait you guys don't HAVE those already?

[BitVyper]

It needs coins. How many coins do you carry on you?

TECHNICALLY it just needs gil, which is straight up credit in some games. Still, I'm entirely willing to drag a wagon full of pennies behind me if it means I can take out an entire tank battalion.

That's it's BIGGEST benefit, yes. But an extra shot at Stone with another Break Blade, or double the life drain with Blood Sabers shouldn't be overlooked.

That's dependent on your ability to get two break blades though. Meanwhile the samurai is getting AoE instant kill as a skill

Wait you guys don't HAVE those already?

The props they sell at House of Knives aren't ACTUALLY magic.