Namekians vs 17/18/Frost

[Darth Drizzle]

The fused Namekians(Pilina and Saonel) add Piccolo to their team and take on the Androids and Frost Demon. Everyone starts at full power.

One on One(choose any combo) and a team fight.

[Siriel]

Piccolo is the weakest on his team in terms of power, conversely #17 is easily the strongest on his team.

One-on-one I tend to think that it goes something like:

#17 beats anyone.
#18 and Frost lose to the U6 Namekians but have a good fight with Piccolo, with Frost at least beating him. Frost can in theory win any match-up via poison, but his opponents would know about it in advance.

In a teamfight I think Pilina and Saoriel together miight be too much for #17, especially with a charged attack from Piccolo as the finisher. Piccolo knows how strong the opposite team is so he'd probably advise something like one of the two holding back #17 while the other beats either #18 or Frost, with Piccolo buying time against the third. Then the victorious Namekian comes to help Piccolo, and finally they triple-team #17, at which point they should be able to take him by using supercharged attacks since he won't be able to go on the offensive against three people. Meanwhile #17/#18/Frost probably wouldn't bother to come up with a strategy.

I'd give the Namekians a very slight majority based on that, but things can easily go wrong because Frost landing a single hit would cripple any of them due to his poison and I don't think they can take hope to take #17 if any of them go down. Likewise if they fail to take down #17 at the first attempt, having used up that much energy probably means they lost their only chance.

[The Arbiter]

17 is kinda broken against anyone weaker then him.

He can just turtle behind a shield and outlast them. Or put them inside of shields and divide and conquer. He can cast shields onto other people with just a glance while he is preoccupied with another task iirc.

[Darth Drizzle]

To be fair the Namekians were fighting pretty evenly against Mystic Gohan, so it's not like 17 is out of their leagues power wise. His sheilds we're good, but I'd bet Piccolos SBC could Pierce it if charged fully.

[The Arbiter]

To be fair the Namekians were fighting pretty evenly against Mystic Gohan, so it's not like 17 is out of their leagues power wise. His sheilds we're good, but I'd bet Piccolos SBC could Pierce it if charged fully.

17 is probably a little tougher then Gohan and Gohan was fighting off both at the same time. They had to resort to such methods as sacrificing their own body parts to even land a hit on him. And despite that, after the smoke clears, Gohan is fine and apologizing for messing up Piccolos timing.

Maybe Piccolo could break the barrier, but if 17 dumps the first two in a bunch of shields he can then safely 1v1 Piccolo into oblivion as his first objective.

[Siriel]

Maybe Piccolo could break the barrier, but if 17 dumps the first two in a bunch of shields he can then safely 1v1 Piccolo into oblivion as his first objective.

He's never demonstrated the ability to have a shield stay up for a meaningful amount of time without concentrating on it, which is pretty consistent with how other ki constructs behave.

[The Arbiter]

He's never demonstrated the ability to have a shield stay up for a meaningful amount of time without concentrating on it, which is pretty consistent with how other ki constructs behave.

He wrapped two people up in multiple layers of the stuff while struggling with Jirens attack. He can multitask the thing just fine.

[Siriel]

He wrapped two people up in multiple layers of the stuff while struggling with Jirens attack. He can multitask the thing just fine.

Yes, he can create multiple layers of shielding.

He's never demonstrated that he can keep them up for any meaningful periods of time. Shielding Goku and Vegeta is the last thing he did when facing the attack, instants before being overpowered by it.

[The Arbiter]

Yes, he can create multiple layers of shielding.

He's never demonstrated that he can keep them up for any meaningful periods of time. Shielding Goku and Vegeta is the last thing he did when facing the attack, instants before being overpowered by it.

I think he has demonstrated that he can keep them up while performing other actions just fine. Like how he bubbles around Jiren and can still move, talk and blast at the guy. The only thing forcing his shield to drop there was him badly hurting himself. Piccolo cannot badly hurt him in a 1v1 fight which this will quickly become.

You seriously dont think he can just think "shield" and then rush forward and beat Piccolo up? He can CLEARLY multitask actions other then putting full focus on the shields.

Again, he barely had to even look at Goku and Vegeta to envelop them in multiple barriers. Doing so didnt take away from his efforts to hold back Jiren. He proceeded to say some words and perform a self destruction after a few more moments of struggle.

I'm NOT saying he can walk away and have a nap and the barriers will remain. I think he has to actively choose to keep them going. I just also think he has more then demonstrated that he can actively keep them going while multitasking other actions (punching, shooting, running, jumping, talking and self destructing are all things he has done while simultaneously keeping up a barrier)

[Siriel]

I think he has demonstrated that he can keep them up while performing other actions just fine. Like how he bubbles around Jiren and can still move, talk and blast at the guy. The only thing forcing his shield to drop there was him badly hurting himself. Piccolo cannot badly hurt him in a 1v1 fight which this will quickly become.

You seriously dont think he can just think "shield" and then rush forward and beat Piccolo up? He can CLEARLY multitask actions other then putting full focus on the shields.

Again, he barely had to even look at Goku and Vegeta to envelop them in multiple barriers. Doing so didnt take away from his efforts to hold back Jiren. He proceeded to say some words and perform a self destruction after a few more moments of struggle.

I'm NOT saying he can walk away and have a nap and the barriers will remain. I think he has to actively choose to keep them going. I just also think he has more then demonstrated that he can actively keep them going while multitasking other actions (punching, shooting, running, jumping, talking and self destructing are all things he has done while simultaneously keeping up a barrier)

Then give an example of him keeping an independent barrier up for more than a few seconds, not counting time freezing from talking. Feats and all.

[The Arbiter]

Then give an example of him keeping an independent barrier up for more than a few seconds, not counting time freezing from talking. Feats and all.

Time freezing from talking?

Also, are you saying that the barriers have some sort of expiration date? Even when hes actively choosing to keep them going?

[Siriel]

Time freezing from talking?

I think it's safe to say that the talking is exaggerated for the sake of drama and isn't actually as long as it seems even from the point of view of the characters. For a good example, see #17 taking the time to deliver a line before detonating on Jiren; taken literally, that would mean Jiren has incredibly slow reaction speed. Since that's not the case in context, it's clear that the talking isn't meant to be taken seriously, as usual for fiction.

Also, are you saying that the barriers have some sort of expiration date? Even when hes actively choosing to keep them going?

That would indeed make sense, because every ki construct ever vanishes very quickly after its users stops focusing on them, and energy blasts don't keep going into infinity if they miss their targets.

He puts an amount of energy into them so they appear, then that energy quickly fades/disperses because he's not keeping it up; that's consistent with every usage of his barriers, where he only spams them very shortly before the attack comes.

Putting it another way if this was not the case you'd be arguing that he can have an infinite amount of barriers up at the same time, and that's pretty clearly not what the anime intends.

[The Arbiter]

I think it's safe to say that the talking is exaggerated for the sake of drama and isn't actually as long as it seems even from the point of view of the characters. For a good example, see #17 taking the time to deliver a line before detonating on Jiren; taken literally, that would mean Jiren has incredibly slow reaction speed. Since that's not the case in context, it's clear that the talking isn't meant to be taken seriously, as usual for fiction.



That would indeed make sense, because every ki construct ever vanishes very quickly after its users stops focusing on them, and energy blasts don't keep going into infinity if they miss their targets.

He puts an amount of energy into them so they appear, then that energy quickly fades/disperses because he's not keeping it up; that's consistent with every usage of his barriers, where he only spams them very shortly before the attack comes.

Putting it another way if this was not the case you'd be arguing that he can have an infinite amount of barriers up at the same time, and that's pretty clearly not what the anime intends.

You asked for feats of barriers lasting more then a little while. But with the caveat of "dont use any examples that totally DO last longer because I've decided that talking has some sort of totally legit and canon slow down thingy and should be safely ignored despite that being just my opinion/interpretation of things". Thats a new level of silly. Its literally you just deciding that those examples are bad examples. You are forcing your interpretation of those events and that's just a bad argument. We have used lines of dialogue as a means for time keeping on Rumbles since forever in both comics, manga and anime. Seasoned posters here on page 1 of Rumbles are currently doing so in other threads. At best you can say its CIS or whatever that Jiren doesn't smash a dude instead of letting them talk, but just ignoring it feels way off.

Also, why on earth would the barriers have some sort of expiration date that would prevent him from just continually keeping them up by actively choosing to power them and keep them on? Again, I'm cool with them fading if he loses focus or stops powering them or whatever, but why would there be some sort of expiration date preventing him from just dumping more energy in to keep it up? When have his powers ever worked like that? If 17 wanted to shoot a little energy beam out of his finger forever I wouldn't see a problem with it. The energy might dissipate a huge distance away, but the beam coming out of his finger wouldn't shut off until he decided to stop shooting. I am totally cool saying he can just decide to keep dumping energy into a barrier to actively keep it up and running while multitasking some other fight stuff while doing so.

At one point, he literally tries to trap Toppo by just continually blasting the guy and relying on his infinite energy to just keep blasting. He can just keep doing an offensive option indefinitely based on feats and presentation but a /defensive/ option you take issue with? He cant choose to just keep powering a barrier and try to keep it raised? You have even mentioned in this thread that the barrier seems to work with the same principles of most Ki stuff, so it feels way off for you to have some sort of problem with this if you can also accept he can just blast indefinitely. He can generate energy continuously without tiring and we have examples of him multitasking this with other fight options like running and blasting etc.

Fight starts and 2 of 3 opponents are trapped. He actively chooses to keep the barriers up while beating down Piccolo before dropping the next barrier and repeating the strategy. Its hardly the first time a DB character has created a defensive option/shield and then beaten someone up while simultaneously choosing not to drop the barrier. Goku does this against the Trio De Dangers with his poison shield. Frieza stuck Goku in a bubble on Namek and actively kept it up while ping ponging him around. Multitasking a barrier while fighting is not new or strange to the series and is absolutely within 17's presentation.

You getting hyper critical of super specific feat examples to the point of saying "prove me wrong but not with stuff that involves talking because that would in fact prove me wrong so I don't like it" despite these points is just mind boggling. At this point we are probably getting into agree to disagree territory. I understand the point you are trying to make - I just think its wrong.

Alternatively, somehow I totally am wrong, but my strategy works anyways. Each barrier starts to reach its expiration date and he just pops a new one up at timed intervals to keep them trapped. We know he can create barriers in layers with just a glance while multitasking other options, so this wouldn't be hard. He engages Piccolo but puts a little time and care into the occasional shield refresh on the other opponents.

[Siriel]

Before I reply to a wall of text, let me ask a question.

#17 vs Toppo (regular), Ribrianne, Goku and Vegeta (limited to SSB) and why not the rest of the U2, U7 and U6 teams (excluding Kefla, Hit and himself).

Actually let's go beyond that, let's make it everyone in the ToP who isn't drastically above his own level.

Do you think #17 flawlessly stomps them all by spamming infinite barriers?

[The Arbiter]

Before I reply to a wall of text, let me ask a question.

#17 vs Toppo (regular), Ribrianne, Goku and Vegeta (limited to SSB) and why not the rest of the U2, U7 and U6 teams (excluding Kefla, Hit and himself).

Actually let's go beyond that, let's make it everyone in the ToP who isn't drastically above his own level.

Do you think #17 flawlessly stomps them all by spamming infinite barriers?

Well, no. And not for the reasons you probably hope I have. There are very real and valid reasons why my first point was that he is OP compared to characters weaker then him.

Let's go with your pre edit and just address him vs Goku and Vegeta - which weirdly you decided to nerf by keeping them locked at ssb when they can both exceed it but whatever.

Goku just uses IT to escape a barrier and warps inside whatever barrier might be around 17. Problem solved. Vegeta can also smash his way through loads of shields with Final Explosion or a super charged Final Flash. Each attack could smash through dozens of shields no problem.

Also, to clarify a few things: I dont think he can create infinite shields. He doesn't have feats for managing to FOCUS on more then a few dozen of them at any given time. My point is that he can choose to keep any smaller number of shields up indefinitely by actively choosing to power them continuously while multitasking a few other fight related things. You seem to be totally getting me wrong. I am NOT saying he has the feats to suggest he can manage a neverending supply of shields, inches apart all across miles of arena or whatever. Hes only shown examples of making a few dozen or so, so that feels reasonable. Just that he could totally choose to keep a smaller number of shields up and running just fine if he were to actively choose to keep powering them. This isn't some crazy notion. He can choose to keep powering attacks indefinitely after all and has feats for performing more than one thing at a time.

Finally, the reason he cant spam shields to victory against tougher dudes capable of breaking through easily is because hes only ever shown creating barriers sequentially.

He pops them into existence one after the other, not simultaneously. This is a BIG problem to suggest he can abuse this strategy against a dude that can smash them, but against the Namekians? Works just fine. He can create 1 barrier, defend from a much weaker counterattack, create a second and then it's just him and Piccolo.

I know your trying to get me with some sort of "Gotcha! Look were your logic gets you!" moment, but it's clear you just assumed I was arguing something I wasnt.