View Poll Results: Would It Have Been More Successful?

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  • Yes.

    16 18.18%
  • No.

    72 81.82%
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  1. #31
    Extraordinary Member Holt's Avatar
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    EDIT 10char is stupid

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    No, BvS was one of the reasons JL bombed.
    Yes and no.

    Wonder Woman did great after BVS.

    Aquaman set DCEU records after JL.

    Snyder being associated with JL hurt the movie a lot. That said JL probably is one of my favorite DCEU movies and I would enjoy watching the director's version. Not everyone likes his direction but I enjoyed the spectacle of Man of Steel and hated BVS.

  3. #33
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    No, not at all. It would have been better than getting a movie that was only partially finished, but no it wouldn't have been successful.

    BvS was already way too exhausting and they shot themselves in the foot, narratively. You're going to tell The Death of Superman...and this is how you do it? People barely have an established idea of who Superman is in a 2010s context.

  4. #34
    Three Legged Member married guy's Avatar
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    No.
    Batman V Superman was a crap idea to start with, and the execution was worse.
    HATED it with a passion.
    I think his take on Justice League would have turned people away in droves. Too dark. Too angsty.
    Snyder seems to have forgotten that the appeal of superheroes is the joy of escaping the real world. Becoming more than you are.
    His superhero films have no joy.
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  5. #35
    Fantastic Member Wandering_Wand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by married guy View Post
    No.
    Batman V Superman was a crap idea to start with, and the execution was worse.
    HATED it with a passion.
    I think his take on Justice League would have turned people away in droves. Too dark. Too angsty.
    Snyder seems to have forgotten that the appeal of superheroes is the joy of escaping the real world. Becoming more than you are.
    His superhero films have no joy.
    I understand these points and I'm not going to argue with them because it's painfully obvious the majority of fans and the general audience agreed.
    Personally, I loved what Snyder was doing. He was taking these fictional superheroes and overlaying them with mythology and philosophy. One can argue the execution of that vs. the simple fact that, as you said, most people probably weren't a) expecting that type of take on the genre, or b) simply wanted light hearted fun and joy.

    To the latter point, I don't think we would have had either of those things in his movies, BUT, it should be noted that Snyder and his wife said before that this was supposed to be a journey for Superman and the League. It was supposed to be dark at first and through the middle, but by the end of his planned 5 film arc, all the heroes would have found themselves and really been gods among humanity and would have been more of what most people wanted to see. They started with a deconstruction of the heroes and it was just not for most fans and the general audience.

    I think it also needs to be said again that here we are, nearly 7 years later (MoS), 4 years later (BvS), and over 2 years later (JL - but that's not entirely his movie) STILL discussing and having thorough debates (and ridiculous and petty arguments) about his movies and what they meant AND what they did. I don't see that happening with the other side near as much or even with any of the other DC movies. I'm not saying anything other than there was an impact, albeit mostly negative, but nonetheless, we're still discussing it all. It's very interesting to consider.
    Last edited by Wandering_Wand; 12-29-2019 at 09:02 AM.

  6. #36
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    Sorry, I was not going to sit through five movies of Superman being a sad sack for him to eventually realize serving humanity is a privilege and not a chore. I literally had to make myself watch JL after seeing it months on the shelves at the local library.

    As for why people aren't talking about the superhero movies on the other side, well, for the most part, people are in universal agreement as to their quality.
    His current approval rating is 34%, meaning 34% of Americans are still morons.

  7. #37
    Relic Seeker Pinsir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by married guy View Post
    No.
    Batman V Superman was a crap idea to start with, and the execution was worse.
    HATED it with a passion.
    I think his take on Justice League would have turned people away in droves. Too dark. Too angsty.
    Snyder seems to have forgotten that the appeal of superheroes is the joy of escaping the real world. Becoming more than you are.
    His superhero films have no joy.
    The Zack Snyder films have a fanbase because people enjoy them. You just aren't going to see a movement for the #ReleasetheSnyderCut
    if they didn't. Maybe the appeal of superhero comics for some is escapism, but that isn't true for the community as a whole.

    Not to mention, Zack Snyder's two major influences are Watchmen and The Dark Knight Returns, which are often ranked as some of the greatest superhero comics and are very much mainstream. Its strange how a director that clearly demonstrates a greater knowledge of the medium then most people working on superhero films today is so often framed as being anti-comic.
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinsir View Post
    The Zack Snyder films have a fanbase because people enjoy them. You just aren't going to see a movement for the #ReleasetheSnyderCut
    if they didn't. Maybe the appeal of superhero comics for some is escapism, but that isn't true for the community as a whole.

    Not to mention, Zack Snyder's two major influences are Watchmen and The Dark Knight Returns, which are often ranked as some of the greatest superhero comics and are very much mainstream. Its strange how a director that clearly demonstrates a greater knowledge of the medium then most people working on superhero films today is so often framed as being anti-comic.
    Both comic stories are just dark and moody and lack joy and no happiness in them.

  9. #39
    Fantastic Member Castling's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amadeus Arkham View Post
    I have to ask if you think if Snyder had gotten to make Justice League the way he wanted without Studio interference and he never stepped down would’ve it have been successful at the box office? Or do you think it would’ve made no discernible difference and the movie would flop just the same?

    When you have Superman and Batman in a movie, only one of them should be brooding. Snyder's JL would have the whole team brooding and killing things as viciously as possible. That's not how fans who grew up with the Timmverse view these heroes.
    It's correct to say that Johns, Berlanti, and the Arrowverse guys had a better understanding of DC heroes than Snyder, and audiences rewarded them for it.

  10. #40
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinsir View Post
    The Zack Snyder films have a fanbase because people enjoy them. You just aren't going to see a movement for the #ReleasetheSnyderCut
    if they didn't. Maybe the appeal of superhero comics for some is escapism, but that isn't true for the community as a whole.

    Not to mention, Zack Snyder's two major influences are Watchmen and The Dark Knight Returns, which are often ranked as some of the greatest superhero comics and are very much mainstream. Its strange how a director that clearly demonstrates a greater knowledge of the medium then most people working on superhero films today is so often framed as being anti-comic.
    Watchmen and the Dark Knight Returns are self contained, deliberately bleak and deconstructive graphic novels that work coherently and are not mainstream takes on the characters.

    Using that tone to launch a shared cinematic universe featuring some of the most beloved comic characters of all time and trying to compete with Marvel is not a wise move. As we've seen demonstrated in their reception. Watchmen is a self contained work so nobody cares how dark those characters are, and TDKR specifically works as a possible future for Batman. Using it as the basis for when Superman and Batman first meet and set up the JL? Completely misses the point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Castling View Post
    When you have Superman and Batman in a movie, only one of them should be brooding. Snyder's JL would have the whole team brooding and killing things as viciously as possible. That's not how fans who grew up with the Timmverse view these heroes.
    It's correct to say that Johns, Berlanti, and the Arrowverse guys had a better understanding of DC heroes than Snyder, and audiences rewarded them for it.
    Yeah, and even with Batman I don't think he should be overly broody.
    Can we have less of a psychotic, overly violent douchey Batman and the more restrained, mysterious Dark Knight detective who is straight up buds with Superman please?

  11. #41
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Considering how poorly his initial foray into the shared verse was in BvS, I'm guessing no, it wouldn't have been a success. I mean, he and WB managed to screw up the first ever on-screen depiction of Superman and Batman together. You have to have a special kind of no-idea-what-we're doing to make that land with the thud it did. I have no reason to believe the original vision for JL would have been any different.
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  12. #42
    Relic Seeker Pinsir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Watchmen and the Dark Knight Returns are self contained, deliberately bleak and deconstructive graphic novels that work coherently and are not mainstream takes on the characters.
    These novels aren't self-contained though, they inspired a generation of creators and their influence is self-evident throughout the industry.

    Using that tone to launch a shared cinematic universe featuring some of the most beloved comic characters of all time and trying to compete with Marvel is not a wise move. As we've seen demonstrated in their reception. Watchmen is a self contained work so nobody cares how dark those characters are, and TDKR specifically works as a possible future for Batman. Using it as the basis for when Superman and Batman first meet and set up the JL? Completely misses the point.
    I mean, MoS was probably written and produced without the mindset that it will serve as the lynchpin for future movies. If you want to argue that it wasn't the most profitable finacial move, fine, but I care about the product foremost and not how much money it made.
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  13. #43
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    MOS was intended as a trilogy. When WB late-decided they wanted some of the MCU money Snyder retooled it into a 5 movie arc with BVS and JL movies

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering_Wand View Post
    I understand these points and I'm not going to argue with them because it's painfully obvious the majority of fans and the general audience agreed.
    Personally, I loved what Snyder was doing. He was taking these fictional superheroes and overlaying them with mythology and philosophy. One can argue the execution of that vs. the simple fact that, as you said, most people probably weren't a) expecting that type of take on the genre, or b) simply wanted light hearted fun and joy.
    To me it looked more like he took the most famous Batman story (The Dark Knight Returns) and the most famous Superman Story (Death of Superman) ripped them apart and tried to combine them to one story.

  15. #45
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinsir View Post
    These novels aren't self-contained though, they inspired a generation of creators and their influence is self-evident throughout the industry.
    No, narratively they very much are self contained stand alone works. Their inspiring other creators has nothing to do with changing that very clear fact. They weren't designed that way, and using them to launch movies that need to appeal to as broad an audience as possible (especially families and kids) to be profitable is very unwise. Casual audiences don't care about their impact on the comic industry.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pinsir View Post
    I mean, MoS was probably written and produced without the mindset that it will serve as the lynchpin for future movies. If you want to argue that it wasn't the most profitable finacial move, fine, but I care about the product foremost and not how much money it made.
    You can care about the product, but financially it didn't quite meet expectations (though didn't do badly either). And as a lynchpin for future movies it failed. Both because, while it had potential, it was flawed. And it's follow ups were really bad and didn't appeal to the wider audience enough that it needed to thrive.

    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    MOS was intended as a trilogy. When WB late-decided they wanted some of the MCU money Snyder retooled it into a 5 movie arc with BVS and JL movies
    There is enough blame to go around. I blame the studio first and foremost. Snyder just did what he was naturally inclined to do, he was just straight up the wrong guy for the job.

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