Would The Zack Snyder Justice League Been Successful?

[Agent Z]

Is it really so hard to comprehend that people didn't like Snyder's work just on the basis they didn't think it was good?
Seriously, this whole thing where you try to blame the MCU does not work, for the simple fact we've had other DC movies come out and be well received by fans and critics.
You can like Synder all you want but you have to accept the fact other people don't and its not because they're being brainwashed its because they didn't like what he did.



Thanos and Darkseid have nothing in common?
The fact someone can even say that with no irony whatsoever is just hilarious.

Yeah, read my comment again.

I said they have almost nothing in common which anyone who actually knows these characters will tell you.

[mathew101281]

Given that the vast majority of people who hate the Snyder DC films, hate them because of their downer tone, I doubt it. Snyder might have been an ok choice for a character like Batman, or other darker heroes, but putting him as the primary tone setter for the entire universe was stupid.

[Agent Z]

Given that the vast majority of people who hate the Snyder DC films, hate them because of their downer tone, I doubt it. Snyder might have been an ok choice for a character like Batman, or other darker heroes, but putting him as the primary tone setter for the entire universe was stupid.

Except they didn't do that and were never going to do that. Wonder Woman and Suicide Squad were nothing like MoS or BvS in terms of tone and they repeatedly stated the Aquaman and Shazam movies would be more diverse.

[matthew]

Almost all of Snyder's movies have a rotten score on Rotten Tomatoes. This tells you that most people do not like Zach Snyder films.

I actually thought Justice League was pretty good for a rewrite. It's pretty watchable. Please watch Batman v. Superman and then watch Justice League and tell me that the former is better...

[manwhohaseverything]

Almost all of Snyder's movies have a rotten score on Rotten Tomatoes. This tells you that most people do not like Zach Snyder films.

I actually thought Justice League was pretty good for a rewrite. It's pretty watchable. Please watch Batman v. Superman and then watch Justice League and tell me that the former is better...

The former is better. At the very least, i don't have to sit through the hollow superman that felt fake. The only problem bvs has for me is lack of supes and that stupid justice league video scene. i finally, got a villain batman.

[phonogram12]

Almost all of Snyder's movies have a rotten score on Rotten Tomatoes. This tells you that most people do not like Zach Snyder films.

#accurate

10 characters

[SiegePerilous02]

Okay, a work like The Authority are also in the same vein as Watchmen and TDK. You can have long form story telling using this style. I legit don't understand why you think that because these some of these stories were self contained doesn't mean much. Its style of comic writing, of course it can be applied to a shared universe because it has been before.

You can, but that still doesn't mean Watchmen and TDKR weren't anything but self contained works when they were created and for a long time afterward.

yes the Authority shows it can work another way, but that way does not apply to Watchmen and TDKR. They are simply not what you are talking about. And the Authority is its own deconstruction take away from a mainstream superhero universe, as is Watchmen and TDKR is a possible future.

Using any of these as a primary influence for a mainstream shared universe with DC's characters is asinine.

The concept that a product fails because it didn't make all the imagined possible money it should have is the dumb idea though and frankly kills companies.

They are literally in the business of making money. This movie made money, but mostly in its first week and then dropped steeply. Yeah people paid for those first tickets, but that's no guarantee that they actually enjoyed the experience (both times I saw it, it was like a funeral got let out afterward). And it pretty much confirmed that people wouldn't be duped twice and turn out for more of the same.

According to your reasoning horror films should be dead genre because they don't have mass appeal, companies should endeavour to only produce Marvel style super-hero flicks, which would of course doom the industry.

Most horror movies do not have the budget of BvS and need to get an insane box office return to be worth the investment.
And I don't like Marvel style movies either, but they are more smartly made from a business perspective. While for something different and experimental, Joker is a better example going against a trend. it made a billion, but it was worth the risk because it didn't cost as much to make.

Also, you're basically arguing that because 2 films were bad that this means the entire style of film has no public appeal, which is wrong.

No, just that you can't blindly apply it to characters who it may not suit and expect it to work just because you're trying to be deep and it works in other instances.
Also, people like good movies regardless of tone. These were not great movies.

If you look at MoS and even BvS box office there is evidence to prove that these sort of films have public appeal. MoS made more money then most superhero movies during that period and the fact that BVS had such a huge opening proves there was a lot of interest in that film.

MoS has more appeal.
But you are conveniently ignoring the steep box office drop in BvS's second weekend, which speaks volumes. It had a huge opening weekend because people were hyped to see the Trinity on screen for the first time ever. You had to really fuck up for a movie like that to have terrible legs, and they did. It's a big, loud and very public embarrassment.

Not to mention, I know people have convinced themselves that MoS is grimdark and hopeless, but tonally it is not that different then Wonder Woman or even the Dark Knight trilogy and a film like Joker made tons of money and it was far more grounded. People want this type of film, maybe not all of them, but enough that its a viable market.

It's not all about tone. That's a strawman argument at this point. Basically, WW, the Nolan trilogy and Joker were just more competently made all around and had characters people cared about and an engaging story. Snyder did not have any of those things for most people.

A Superman story with that tone is questionable, but not necessarily impossible. Snyder just didn't deliver a good example of how it can be done. MoS was better, but any potential this version had was killed by BvS and neither version of JL (the planned one or the one we got) was going to save it.

[Skullkid]

Yeah, read my comment again.

I said they have almost nothing in common which anyone who actually knows these characters will tell you.

Thats not an argument.
And the fact Thanos was based on Darkseid is common knowledge, so they have a bit more than almost nothing in common.
Hell they were merged into one person in Amalgam universe

[married guy]

Tell that to all the version of the character that had.Even byrne post crisis superman has killed.This notion is ridiculous. Generally even the post crisis is like gohan.When push comes to shove he would make choices and take sides.

Lets agree to disagree! All Superman did was bash each enemy into submission all the while endangering bystanders then when faced with a moral dilemma snapped the villains neck.
That isn't my Superman.
And sure, Byrne's Superman killed, but he kinda went a little nuts over it with the guilt he felt afterwards.
Action #775 is a great example of Superman defeating the big bad WITHOUT resorting to killing the antagonist.

[SiegePerilous02]

Lets agree to disagree! All Superman did was bash each enemy into submission all the while endangering bystanders then when faced with a moral dilemma snapped the villains neck.
That isn't my Superman.
And sure, Byrne's Superman killed, but he kinda went a little nuts over it with the guilt he felt afterwards.
Action #775 is a great example of Superman defeating the big bad WITHOUT resorting to killing the antagonist.

What's weird is that MoS Superman had a much better reason for killing Zod, and it being done in the heat of the moment sits better than an execution.
But it the Byrne story actually got a follow up though with repercussions. The movie just had him scream and cry for a scene, and then that was it.

They both suck lol.

[manwhohaseverything]

Lets agree to disagree! All Superman did was bash each enemy into submission all the while endangering bystanders then when faced with a moral dilemma snapped the villains neck.
That isn't my Superman.
And sure, Byrne's Superman killed, but he kinda went a little nuts over it with the guilt he felt afterwards.
Action #775 is a great example of Superman defeating the big bad WITHOUT resorting to killing the antagonist.

Right! Feeling guilty doesn't happen to anyone. Dude, survivors guilt can happen to anyone. More like superman gets thrown around like ragdoll by a freaking solider and his crew. By sheer dumb luck got an upper hand for a split second, took it.Feeling sorry doesn't change the fact he killed. superman is the dude that does the right thing, always.And that includes putting the happiness and life of everyone before his own wellbeing and even moral integrity. That doesn't make him injusticeman or two face.This is'nt me being edgy either.Superman at his core is the vigilante strongman. He chose to start Vigilantism seeing rampant corruption. His chest insignia was a statement to the corrupt. He is the guy that throws wife beaters through wall and jumping around buildings with a corrupt officer.He ain't some moral paragon. even though, he can work like that sort of character. But, that isn't some necessity. If you believe that then you can but, the characters history doesn't reflect that.


Ah!action comics #775 where the issue and the opponents are caricaturised. It started the trend that signifies everything wrong with superman,currently . The man of action doesn't need speeches.His action should speak louder than any damn speech. "what's so funny about" isn't some holly grale. If you want a real kantian counter to utilitarianism. There are countless other story. Full metal alchemist brotherhood is one such story. Rurouni kenshin also has protagonist that doesn't kill.

[manwhohaseverything]

What's weird is that MoS Superman had a much better reason for killing Zod, and it being done in the heat of the moment sits better than an execution.
But it the Byrne story actually got a follow up though with repercussions. The movie just had him scream and cry for a scene, and then that was it.

They both suck lol.

No, in bvs clark and pa had a talk about consequences. The whole thing about pa saving his farm causing flooding in lang farm, was about Clark's guilt. He has too learn to live with the deaths of people in black zero event.The talk about nightmares was all about it. But, clark wasn't sorry for stopping a genocidal monster hell bent on human extinction. He was feeling conflicted about the good he does actually to leading some horrific out come instead of good.

[Vordan]

No, in bvs clark and pa had a talk about consequences. The whole thing about pa saving his farm causing flooding in lang farm, was about Clark's guilt. He has too learn to live with the deaths of people in black zero event.The talk about nightmares was all about it. But, clark wasn't sorry for stopping a genocidal monster hell bent on human extinction. He was feeling conflicted about the good he does actually to leading some horrific out come instead of good.

And then he goes and kills Zod again in BvS. And he was going to help kill Steppenwolf in JL. There’s no “guilt” there at all, the talk with Pa is more about how everyone is being mean to him because he killed Zod, not Clark actually feeling bad about it (also that talk sucks for a variety of reasons). Snyder never had any intention of Superman having a no kill rule. Superman kills in Snyder’s movies.

[manwhohaseverything]

And then he goes and kills Zod again in BvS. And he was going to help kill Steppenwolf in JL. There’s no “guilt” there at all, the talk with Pa is more about how everyone is being mean to him because he killed Zod, not Clark actually feeling bad about it (also that talk sucks for a variety of reasons). Snyder never had any intention of Superman having a no kill rule. Superman kills in Snyder’s movies.

Yeah! So? Does the movies say Superman developed a " no kill code"? Short answer, no.
Why should he feel sorry for stopping a monster? That will just bring dishonor to the people that lost their lives. Because mouring having to stop a genocidal maniac that's connected to the deaths of thousands from continuing his blood lust is saying "i am feel bad for saving you people. I shouldn't hsve"
No, it ain't about people being "mean" to him. It is specifically there to address the starting scene of bruce's perspective of black zero. Clark is pa. Bruce is the lang family. The question asked is. Who is the villain there? Is it pa/clark who was trying to stop a flood/zod but caused untold damage because of short-sightedness or bruce/langs who became vengeful ball of hatred after being flooded with deaths around because of one man?
The answer is neither and both. Both are victims of circumstances and both are villains because of their flaws. The end scene "Men are still good, we fight, we kill, we betray one another, but we can rebuild we can do better, we will. We have to"

Honestly, this all put in the movie pretty bluntly with hammers. Snyder doesn't do subtle. He is in your face with this stuff. Yet, still people have the same complaints "but, he kills again". it has nothing to do with killing zod and everything to do with the other innocent people that died. I don't believe that you don't get it. You guys just don't see the movie for what it is. You just want your notions and fancies fulfilled. If you want exile, go read that.if you want superman to have a journey towards some kind of "no kill" go read stories that has it. There are plenty.Snyder is their to tell his story.if it's not for you that's fine. Don't put headphones with another music, listen to live performance and then complain about the lack of volume from the main lead of the live performance.

[Frontier]

Except they didn't do that and were never going to do that. Wonder Woman and Suicide Squad were nothing like MoS or BvS in terms of tone and they repeatedly stated the Aquaman and Shazam movies would be more diverse.

I think some of that was the result of course-correction post-BvS.

Snyder's Aquaman was set to be a lot different then what we ultimately ended up with.