Design your own Kandor (and Argo)

[Tzigone]

You get to remake the universe and introduce and incorporate Supergirl and Kandor. Part of the planet or moon colonies or whatnot. I like planet-side with no space travel for Kryptonians, myself, as I think it fits better for Superman's origin story.

Kandor is a bottle city, so I'm interested in what people would do with it. Do they have farmland? Vertical farming? Food machines? What's their energy source? How big is the city? Did any die when Brainiac took it? What was the culture like before and after the event? How long ago did it happen - months before Krypton's destruction? Years? Decades? Centuries? Is the stolen generation still living (stasis possibly used)? What percent was born after? If many of the born-on-Krypton generation is still alive, when do they learn of Krypton's destruction and how do they feel about it? Would they rather be enlarged again under a red or yellow sun?

For Argo, it's more about infrastructure and how long the city could last and how people react to Krypton's destruction and being sole survivors. And that's only applicable if Argo does actually survive Krypton's destruction. If it's just the city Kara lived in before launched into space in stasis, then it's just part of Krypton and can be treated only as part of the whole instead.

[Jon Clark]

I sort of prefer the implied Kandor in the original Power Girl origin. Kara's parents created a sort of simulated life for her to experience during the rocket flight So I'd have either Brainiac create this as opposed to actual shrunken cities or have it be something sent with one of the rockets (Kal's or Kara's). A whole city of artificial Kryptonians, possibly ones who don't even know they are not in organic bodies. It allows Superman to experience life on Krypton but without any problems of why there aren't hundreds of superbeings (even miniaturized ones). The real Kandor is dead on Krypton as are all of it's inhabitants- but these recreations live on believing they are the originals.

For Argo, I liked the explanation that the city was protected by one of Brainiac's force-shields at the point of explosion. I think it was that Zor-El had somehow reverse engineered it. The city survives but between the kryptonite in the preserved ground under the city and the fact it has limited resources after Krypton's destruction it is always on borrowed time. Not sure how we get a rocket for Kara unless we go with the more amoral takes on Zor-El or have another alien involved. If it wasn't too tragic I'd consider having Kal discover that Argo survived and mount a rescue mission which unfortunately only saves Kara.

[Tzigone]

Can't say I like that Kandor idea, I admit. I'm kinda a fan of Thara. Even without her, I don't think I'd ever have Superman there. I wouldn't want him to experience an illusion of life on Krypton. Not on purpose, anyway. If he must interact with Krypton, I'd go old school time-travel (which may also help in regards to tech at the Fortress of Solitude, if you like that sort of thing). But even with that, I admit that Kandor just is a shrunken city for me. Don't really think it works that well for Superman and Power Girl to be sent by different types of rockets that move at vastly different speeds, have different functions (how long did they have to prepare that artificial reality in the comic, btw?). It's probably one of those fiction-isn't-like-reality things to me that I expect consistency of technology in fiction, when the real world can be so varied.

For Argo - why would you have Brainiac have a force-shield over the city? What's his/its role in in this place at this time? It's interesting, and I want to hear more of the details.

Kara born after, as it originally was, does have its appeals. Though it does mean that like Clark, she never knows the loss and tragedy of Krypton. Unlike him, though, she's daily exposed to those that do, and to the culture. And with a very "borrowed time" Argo, as you suggested, she's probably in a fairly bleak or depressing environment. Unless she was a baby and grew up in the rocket, too. Or the city's population/propaganda had a policy of false cheer/hope where everyone pretended everything was going to be okay, even if they knew it wasn't.

[Jon Clark]

Can't say I like that Kandor idea, I admit. I'm kinda a fan of Thara. Even without her, I don't think I'd ever have Superman there. I wouldn't want him to experience an illusion of life on Krypton. Not on purpose, anyway. If he must interact with Krypton, I'd go old school time-travel (which may also help in regards to tech at the Fortress of Solitude, if you like that sort of thing). But even with that, I admit that Kandor just is a shrunken city for me. Don't really think it works that well for Superman and Power Girl to be sent by different types of rockets that move at vastly different speeds, have different functions (how long did they have to prepare that artificial reality in the comic, btw?). It's probably one of those fiction-isn't-like-reality things to me that I expect consistency of technology in fiction, when the real world can be so varied.

I sort of prefer the artificial city idea more because like I said it removes some questions. No super-people that can leave the city to add to the equation everytime Superman might need them. Since the environment is entirely illusionary Lois, Jimmy, Batman can visit without any questions about Krypton vs Earth conditions. Superman and Supergirl aren't always trying unsuccessfully to enlarge the city despite having guys like Ray Palmer or Ryan Choi who go from microscopic to full-size everyday.

And while the Power Girl story wasn't real detailed, the differences made a little sense.

The theory of relativity hold that objects near light-speed experience time at a slower rate, so Superman's rocket goes straight from Krypton to Earth and then he ages 50+ years. Kara's rocket takes a longer to get here but travelling at near-light speed she ages 10-15 years while Superman aged 50. Her rocket wasn't slower, it took a longer route.

And the idea was that Zor-L on Earth 2 was more of a sociologist working on a way to stimulte the mind for anyone in the rocket. Jor-L was more of an engineer working on refining the actual designs of the rocket itself. When Krypton blew neither had time to share the modifications to the original design. Kal's rocket might have had better engines or navigation, Kara's had the ability to keep her mind engaged for a decade or more in a virtual reality.

For Argo - why would you have Brainiac have a force-shield over the city? What's his/its role in in this place at this time? It's interesting, and I want to hear more of the details.

I'm having trouble keeping the iterations straight. Either Zor-El made a deal with Brainiac (New 52) or studied the force-shield Brainiac used to bottle Kandor during the shrinking process (New Krypton). I just remember that unlike the weather dome in the original origin Zor-El had sealed Argo in a giant force field based on Brainiac's design.

Kara born after, as it originally was, does have its appeals. Though it does mean that like Clark, she never knows the loss and tragedy of Krypton. Unlike him, though, she's daily exposed to those that do, and to the culture. And with a very "borrowed time" Argo, as you suggested, she's probably in a fairly bleak or depressing environment. Unless she was a baby and grew up in the rocket, too. Or the city's population/propaganda had a policy of false cheer/hope where everyone pretended everything was going to be okay, even if they knew it wasn't.

Well, Kara isn't necessarily traumatized by the destruction of Krypton in the original origin, she does lose Argo and all it's inhabitants who she grew up with. Superman as an infant/toddler had no idea that anyone had died, to him he lost Jor-El and Lara but gained Martha and Jonathan as replacements.

And the borrowed time may or may not have been public knowledge. The average citizen of Argo might have assumed that after surviving the death of Krypton that Argo was self-sustaining, or would survive long enough to find a new home. The leaders would be the only ones to know that every time they ran a mouthful of water or a lungful of air through the reclamation system they lost a small percentage and that each child born shortened the city's projected life by several hours.

[Jim Kelly]

I came up with sort of the same idea for Kandor as Jon Clark, a long time ago. I prefer the idea that Superman is the only survivor, but I also enjoy concepts like Kandor and the Phantom Zone--so I wanted to envision how both versions could be true. I even extended the same sort of thing to Argo as what happened in Kandor. Argo never really made a lot of sense--a city surviving for an extended period of time in outer space--but if the dome was made from the same technology that Brainiac had, something that Zor-El and Jor-El hacked into when Brainiac attacked, then Zor-El was able to upload all of Argo to the cloud, where they lived a simulated life. Which would mean that Supergirl is also a fiction, even though she believes she's real. Superman knows the truth but he doesn't want to tell any of the so-called survivors that they're essentially ghosts--and every time they find out, Superman has to erase their memories and reboot the system.

Getting back to the actual design of Kandor. This never made sense in the classic stories from the 1960s and 1970s and I had already figured out that the bottle couldn't be what we saw on the comic page. Something else had to be going on visually, because most exterior shots showed a big city in a bottle. The scale was all off. Various stories established that there was some kind of simulated red sun and it was a very large city with natural areas at the outskirts of forests and caves and wildlife--none of which was shown looking from the outside of the bottle. So we weren't really seeing into the bottle--that was an illusion.

[Tzigone]

Superman knows the truth but he doesn't want to tell any of the so-called survivors that they're essentially ghosts--and every time they find out, Superman has to erase their memories and reboot the system.

That is absolutely horrifying. And kind of despotic from Superman.

Something else had to be going on visually, because most exterior shots showed a big city in a bottle. The scale was all off.

This is true.

[Jokerz79]

Personally I like the idea Kandor was nuked in the Clone War my twist is after the War Krytponians became isolationist and a few Krytonians left Krypton and migrated to Daxam and built a New Kandor and that's the bottle city and the Kryptonians have interspecies mated to the point their DNA has little Kryptonian.

Outside of the core Superman family I don't like Kryptonians surviving Krypton with the Phantom Zone exception and irony only villains survived.

[marhawkman]

The simulated city idea could perhaps be done better as a sort of interactive historical archive of the city. The people aren't real at all. The simulation isn't detailed enough for them to actually think.

I personally liked the idea of planet Argo in TAS. As advanced as Kryptonians were it makes sense for some to not live on Krypton. It's the backstory for some of the post-crisis comic characters too. For example: Karsta Wor-Ul survived the destruction of Krypton by being off in deep space.

[Tzigone]

I personally liked the idea of planet Argo in TAS. As advanced as Kryptonians were it makes sense for some to not live on Krypton. It's the backstory for some of the post-crisis comic characters too. For example: Karsta Wor-Ul survived the destruction of Krypton by being off in deep space.

That will never work for me. It makes Jor-El sending Kal-El to earth a completely illogical and nonsensical decision to me. Just because a society is advanced in one way does not mean they are advanced in others. Even in one area of technology v. another. I like them with no long-range space capability to keep Clark's refugee-to-earth status making sense.

[marhawkman]

That will never work for me. It makes Jor-El sending Kal-El to earth a completely illogical and nonsensical decision to me. Just because a society is advanced in one way does not mean they are advanced in others. Even in one area of technology v. another. I like them with no long-range space capability to keep Clark's refugee-to-earth status making sense.

Enh, that could have other reasons. One of the post crisis versions had it that the Kryptonians were in the middle of abandoning most or all of their colonies and that he sent his son somewhere away from that.

[Jim Kelly]

One of the theories posed for why we don't see evidence of other beings in the universe is that they advance so much that they don't need to leave their planet and turn inward (constructing things like Dyson sphere's).

With Krypton, the planet is so large that there's enough land to sustain the population for a lot longer than we can on Earth and the gravity is so great that our propulsion engines wouldn't work to get them into outer space. So maybe their civilization goes along much further before they even consider going into outer space, to the point where they reach such a level that inner space is more important to them.

[Tzigone]

Enh, that could have other reasons. One of the post crisis versions had it that the Kryptonians were in the middle of abandoning most or all of their colonies and that he sent his son somewhere away from that.

I know, but it doesn't work for me. If his own brother is living on an off-planet colony that will survive, then the whole family should pack up their spaceship and move there. Or to any other colony that would survive. Or even, if all of those are out, take the entire family to earth. A one-person rocket makes far more sense in terms of a prototype when you aren't using the self-sacrifice-due-to-decaying-society (I don't prefer the depressing Krypton).

With Krypton, the planet is so large that there's enough land to sustain the population for a lot longer than we can on Earth and the gravity is so great that our propulsion engines wouldn't work to get them into outer space. So maybe their civilization goes along much further before they even consider going into outer space, to the point where they reach such a level that inner space is more important to them.

I thought maybe cheap, clean energy and smaller population growth (see how education and financial advancement decrease family sizes on Earth) meant that by time any such tech might have been feasible, there just wasn't the demand. Though resource limitation and a desire to mine could still be a factor. Lack of warfare on the planet in the appropriate era could also contribute (so much of rocketry is tied in with weapons here).

[DrNewGod]

I'm with Jon Clark and Jim Kelly: Simulation. You get to tell some interesting identity stories.

I could see it that Kryptonians were heavily integrated with their technology, and a copy of their mental imprints are what Brainiac stole. Their high council might even have been a gestalt of all Kryptonians, ever, ala The Kree Supreme Intelligence. I had a similar notion about The Phantom Zone; it's where Kryptonians segregated the imprints of convicted criminals. Escapes are a function of criminals animating matrices like in Virtuosity

[Thor-Ul]

A self sustain society, indeed would not have the need of dangerous space exploration. That kind of adventures, exploration, is a search of new resources. You leave your habitat when you have nothing left to eat. Not a nice fact, but a fact however. So if the society in Krypton it was so advanced and self-sustain, they would not have the need of outer space exploration. Maybe they explored thorught telescopes or theoretically, but it must should be a very costly venture.

Back on the Kandor /Argo idea, I conceive the idea of Kandor trapped in a groundhog day kind os time stasis.

[Superlad93]

Argo: Kryptonian satellite colony. A group separatist devolve it in protest to the science council's ban on space travel following the Kandor incident years before. It's both a functional society and a protest against isolationism. It's caught in the blast that takes Krypton, but it dies a slow death ultimately.

Kara: Either Clark's cousin on his mother's side, or a fairly random citizen of Argo. Regardless of which, Clark finds her on the bombed out remains of Argo in stasis.

Kandor: Very simply keep it the shrunken city with actual Kryptonians in it. My only change would be to recontextualize Clark's visits to the city. It's Clark going to a home he could've had if fate were different and he were a different person. Play up that very specific and real feeling any first or second generation immigrant gets when they go back to the old country. That feeling of being in a place where you see so much of yourself in the people around you, but your time in your current home has altered you irrevocably. That feeling of true normalcy and understanding you've longing for is once again out of reach as you yet again are just enough of a stranger in a strange land.

I'd also maybe add in a young radicalized group of bottle worshiper.