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  1. #1
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    Default A Dan Slott's Iron Man question: Shouldn't the same be said about War Machine ?

    I was wondering given the whole revelation of Dan Slott's Iron Man and his position of Tony Stark, then shouldn't the same thing be said about War Machine given that he went through the similar process and thereby showcase how much of a murder Carol Danver/Captain Marvel truly is ?

  2. #2
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    Tony, Rhodey, and Arno all had the process done to them to re-engineer their bodies. Tony is different because he also deleted his mind during Dark Reign while being pursued by Osborn, and restored it using an electronic backup. It's the ship of Theseus. If you replace every part of a car, is it the same car? If Tony replaced both his mind and his body, is he the same Tony? If his parents were revived using the same means, are they the same Howard and Maria?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    Tony, Rhodey, and Arno all had the process done to them to re-engineer their bodies. Tony is different because he also deleted his mind during Dark Reign while being pursued by Osborn, and restored it using an electronic backup. It's the ship of Theseus. If you replace every part of a car, is it the same car? If Tony replaced both his mind and his body, is he the same Tony? If his parents were revived using the same means, are they the same Howard and Maria?
    So they're all fake and/or living on borrowed time ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cmbmool View Post
    So they're all fake and/or living on borrowed time ?
    Their new bodies are all fit and healthy. If Rhodey and Arno are considered fake then so are a truckload of other characters. Whether Tony is "fake" or not is the point of the book/up to the reader. I don't think he's fake. He doesn't have less value to me if he's not the original.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Banner
    I like Charles Xavier, nice guy. But we are in a moment where billionaires control not only our economy but our political life. #Professor$

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    Invincible Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Yeah, the same thing would apply to Peter Parker as well, due to what happened in Superior Spider-Man. And of course, any X-Men resurrected by the Five on Krakoa.
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    Pretty much this. Say what you will about the final fight between Captain Marvel and Iron Man in Civil War II, but Thanos was War Machine's killer. Captain Marvel's part in that was just overconfidence in her team's chances of beating Thanos with only the forewarning they got from Ulysses, so while it could be argued she was still responsible for War Machine's death by virtue of bringing him into a fight nobody, least of all her, was adequately prepared for, it wasn't exactly the same as going full-force at someone she'd once considered a friend, even if she didn't intend to kill him in the heat of that moment. Also, if the Starks (Tony still included) and Rhodey are effectively clones of themselves via that "biotech forced reboot" process, as I call it, then so are pretty much all the major (and minor) X-Men/mutants on Krakoa and Peter Parker (vis--vis the mental/spiritual fragment of himself left behind after his first attempt to take back his body from Otto Octavius in the original Superior Spider-Man failed) and Ben Reilly, as well as any of the other "reanimates" that survived The Clone Conspiracy, even with Nick Spencer's later claim via Doctor Strange that the "reanimates" were the same souls in new bodies.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Pretty much this. Say what you will about the final fight between Captain Marvel and Iron Man in Civil War II, but Thanos was War Machine's killer. Captain Marvel's part in that was just overconfidence in her team's chances of beating Thanos with only the forewarning they got from Ulysses, so while it could be argued she was still responsible for War Machine's death by virtue of bringing him into a fight nobody, least of all her, was adequately prepared for, it wasn't exactly the same as going full-force at someone she'd once considered a friend, even if she didn't intend to kill him in the heat of that moment. Also, if the Starks (Tony still included) and Rhodey are effectively clones of themselves via that "biotech forced reboot" process, as I call it, then so are pretty much all the major (and minor) X-Men/mutants on Krakoa and Peter Parker (vis--vis the mental/spiritual fragment of himself left behind after his first attempt to take back his body from Otto Octavius in the original Superior Spider-Man failed) and Ben Reilly, as well as any of the other "reanimates" that survived The Clone Conspiracy, even with Nick Spencer's later claim via Doctor Strange that the "reanimates" were the same souls in new bodies.
    the difference would be the method. Tony created digital copies of the mind. We dont know if the process brought back the soul or not but what its sure is that in the moment he turned his mind digital all laws consider him a AI.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cmbmool View Post
    I was wondering given the whole revelation of Dan Slott's Iron Man and his position of Tony Stark, then shouldn't the same thing be said about War Machine given that he went through the similar process and thereby showcase how much of a murder Carol Danver/Captain Marvel truly is ?
    He gets the point across but the issue is that it isn't adequately explored to make a determination, it's more or less what Tony/Slott is saying about the character rather than something across the book we're figuring out. It's also hurt by the fact that there are ways of Tony exploring this and it doesn't come up because we had to go so many issues farting around until 2020. Iron man 2020 could've easily been Arno taking lead while Tony sorts out his identity crisis rather than Arno wanting to be Iron man for some reason and somehow having access to the Stark fortune.

    Given implications over what we have it's pretty damning of a lot of characters all things considered and really should be consulting Doctor Strange and those alike. It's kind of ironic that Slott pretty much gave fuck all about it over in Amazing Spider-man only to bring this up on Iron man of all places, a character whose died a couple of times and technically hasn't been the original Stark since the Crossing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hulkling View Post
    the difference would be the method. Tony created digital copies of the mind. We dont know if the process brought back the soul or not but what its sure is that in the moment he turned his mind digital all laws consider him a AI.
    Interesting point. Hell, going back to The Clone Conspiracy, the current Doctor Octopus is the result of Otto's digitally preserved consciousness being bonded to a cloned body, not to mention that the same thing basically happened when he was revived the first time after he got killed by Kaine back in the 90s, with his body resurrected by the Hand's ritual and his mind being downloaded from the "Master Programmer" persona he adopted in cyberspace.

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperiorIronman View Post
    He gets the point across but the issue is that it isn't adequately explored to make a determination, it's more or less what Tony/Slott is saying about the character rather than something across the book we're figuring out. It's also hurt by the fact that there are ways of Tony exploring this and it doesn't come up because we had to go so many issues farting around until 2020. Iron man 2020 could've easily been Arno taking lead while Tony sorts out his identity crisis rather than Arno wanting to be Iron man for some reason and somehow having access to the Stark fortune.

    Given implications over what we have it's pretty damning of a lot of characters all things considered and really should be consulting Doctor Strange and those alike. It's kind of ironic that Slott pretty much gave fuck all about it over in Amazing Spider-man only to bring this up on Iron man of all places, a character whose died a couple of times and technically hasn't been the original Stark since the Crossing.
    Yeah, like I said before, Nick Spencer had to patch that up in Hunted by having Curt Connors consult Strange about his "reanimated" son and wife that he had to turn into Lizards like himself so they'd survive clone degeneration, so to me, it's also pretty damning that the same writer who didn't care to analyze that in The Clone Conspiracy brought it up with Iron Man.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  10. #10
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    It was meant to be ambiguous in Clone Conspiracy. Kingpin snapped his wife's neck.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Banner
    I like Charles Xavier, nice guy. But we are in a moment where billionaires control not only our economy but our political life. #Professor$

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperiorIronman View Post
    Iron man 2020 could've easily been Arno taking lead while Tony sorts out his identity crisis.
    It could have been, sure, but that doesn't have a lot of punch to it.

    Far better and more dramatic to have Tony taking a hard fall and Arno taking advantage of that to claim the IM mantle and Tony then having to fight his way back to it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    It was meant to be ambiguous in Clone Conspiracy. Kingpin snapped his wife's neck.
    Yeah, Kingpin's a special kind of coldblooded for that, but it makes sense. "Accept no substitutes," after all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    It could have been, sure, but that doesn't have a lot of punch to it.

    Far better and more dramatic to have Tony taking a hard fall and Arno taking advantage of that to claim the IM mantle and Tony then having to fight his way back to it.
    Like has been the standard for the best or at least most critically acclaimed Iron Man stories over the years. Tony falls, Tony picks himself back up again.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  13. #13
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    The premise of this thread is so silly that I was kind of surprised it wasn't the usual guy making anti-Carol threads.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by hulkling View Post
    the difference would be the method. Tony created digital copies of the mind. We dont know if the process brought back the soul or not but what its sure is that in the moment he turned his mind digital all laws consider him a AI.
    There are a ton of Marvel characters that Tony has on speed dial, like Brother Voodoo, or Stephen Strange, or Daimon Hellstrom, that Tony could consult, if he really cared about whether or not he had a soul (or his original soul, for that matter). They all can sense / speak to / manipulate souls, or can astrally project (and separate their souls from their bodies, as well as those of others), etc.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    There are a ton of Marvel characters that Tony has on speed dial, like Brother Voodoo, or Stephen Strange, or Daimon Hellstrom, that Tony could consult, if he really cared about whether or not he had a soul (or his original soul, for that matter). They all can sense / speak to / manipulate souls, or can astrally project (and separate their souls from their bodies, as well as those of others), etc.
    Very good point. If Curt Connors could find Stephen Strange and ask him about the souls of his "reanimated" family, why couldn't Tony do the same?
    The spider is always on the hunt.

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