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  1. #31
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kintor View Post
    I think that the existential issues over Iron Man and now the X-Men highlight the problem with Marvel trying to do fantasy and sci-fi at the same time. Codifying the mind as digital information, something that can be copied and moved to other substrates besides the original human brain, would suggest that the soul doesn't exist. Yet Marvel also maintains that the soul is real and this has tangible consequences for their more magically inclined characters. Unless Marvel decides to definitively put an end to one of these extremes, like say a war between the technological and the magical, these headaches will only continue.
    Sounds a lot like Altered Carbon, or the Takeshi Kovacs novel series on which Altered Carbon was based.

    Quote Originally Posted by Desmark View Post
    Imagine the robot revolution clashing with the strange academy over some arbitrary issue like magic suddenly disrupting sentient tech all of a sudden causing sentient AIs to die...... prepare for MvsM(Magic vs Machine) where Dr strange clashes with Machine Man in a robotic/supernatural war no one saw coming.
    Like Jason Aaron's Doctor Strange run where an army of mage-killers from another world tried to kill all magic in this one using some secret super-science?

    Quote Originally Posted by Triniking1234 View Post
    Just like the Marvel replacing the OGs problem we just had, Marvel doing the same story plot in multiple stories at once (Black Widow, Iron Man, X-Men) is the issue.
    Hmm, Black Widow's even foreshadowed the X-Men's, in a manner of speaking, since like with the X-Men on Krakoa, the Black Widow operatives' memories and personalities were kept in psychic storage to be downloaded into new clone bodies whenever they were killed.

    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Well, there was a brain-swap, but then the story later ignores that, with the idea Peter was stuck in the recesses of his brain, while Ock was in the driver's seat. Even if we dismiss that, Ock himself resurrected himself with a digital copy, exactly like Iron Man.
    A digital copy of his brain, uploaded into a cloned body from DNA taken from his corpse by the Jackal (Ben Reilly, who was put through a similar process to come back from the dead).
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  2. #32
    Mighty Member Kintor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triniking1234 View Post
    Just like the Marvel replacing the OGs problem we just had, Marvel doing the same story plot in multiple stories at once (Black Widow, Iron Man, X-Men) is the issue.
    You make a good point, if 'restoring the mind from an external back-up' only happened to one character it'd be easier to ignore. Just chalk it up to comic book weirdness and go read something else for while. But when this existential stuff seems to be happening to everybody it can only highlight the internal weaknesses and contradictions of Marvel's world building.

    Come to think of it though. It seems to me that Marvel's current problems over this issue are a direct result of trying to replace all the OG characters at once. So many classic characters died, only now be ressurected in quick succession, raising some uncomfortable questions about personhood and the legitimacy of these new verisons of them. In other words, Marvel is still paying the price of their mistakes from Civil War II/Secret Empire. And that's not even counting whatever the hell you call the cosmic cube generated being currently known as Captain America.

    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Sounds a lot like Altered Carbon, or the Takeshi Kovacs novel series on which Altered Carbon was based.
    Eh, this sort of stuff is a relatively common theme in science fiction. Altered Carbon just has the distinction of exploring the concept of mind digitisation in greater detail then most. Not that I neccessarily agree with the conclusions Richard K. Morgan makes about the society that would result because of such technology. He seems to downplay the significance of virtual reality, at lead in the first novel anyway, never reader further into the series.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kintor View Post
    You make a good point, if 'restoring the mind from an external back-up' only happened to one character it'd be easier to ignore. Just chalk it up to comic book weirdness and go read something else for while. But when this existential stuff seems to be happening to everybody it can only highlight the internal weaknesses and contradictions of Marvel's world building.

    Come to think of it though. It seems to me that Marvel's current problems over this issue are a direct result of trying to replace all the OG characters at once. So many classic characters died, only now be ressurected in quick succession, raising some uncomfortable questions about personhood and the legitimacy of these new verisons of them. In other words, Marvel is still paying the price of their mistakes from Civil War II/Secret Empire. And that's not even counting whatever the hell you call the cosmic cube generated being currently known as Captain America.


    Eh, this sort of stuff is a relatively common theme in science fiction. Altered Carbon just has the distinction of exploring the concept of mind digitisation in greater detail then most. Not that I neccessarily agree with the conclusions Richard K. Morgan makes about the society that would result because of such technology. He seems to downplay the significance of virtual reality, at lead in the first novel anyway, never reader further into the series.
    Hmm, you make some good points there, and yes, I would agree to a certain extent that the 'verse as a whole is paying still for the past mistakes made by a lot of the heroes, especially since a number of those heroes could be argued to have not paid a sufficient price for those aforementioned mistakes.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  4. #34
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    A digital copy of his brain, uploaded into a cloned body from DNA taken from his corpse by the Jackal (Ben Reilly, who was put through a similar process to come back from the dead).
    No way that's the real Ock.
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    No way that's the real Ock.
    Maybe. Maybe not.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    Yeah, the same thing would apply to Peter Parker as well, due to what happened in Superior Spider-Man. And of course, any X-Men resurrected by the Five on Krakoa.
    I wouldn't doubt the many discussions on this board regarding whether or not Peter was a copy played a role in his writing this into Iron Man. He posts here from time to time, as many of you know.
    Read my free superhero webcomic, The Ill!

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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montressor View Post
    I wouldn't doubt the many discussions on this board regarding whether or not Peter was a copy played a role in his writing this into Iron Man. He posts here from time to time, as many of you know.
    That would make sense, I'll admit.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  8. #38

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    Everyone born before 2015 is dead. The only exceptions are Dr. Doom, Dr. Strange, Molecule Man, Mr. Fantastic, Black Panther, Captain Marvel, Star Lord, Thor (Jane Foster), Spider-Man (Peter Parker), Spider-Man (Miles Morales), Thanos, Black Swan, Terrax the truly enlightened (not 616 Terrax), Namor, Proxima Midnight, Maximus, Corvus Glaive and the Maker.

    And from that list, let's remove...
    * Thanos, killed by Dr. Doom in Battleworld
    * The Maker, turned into pizza by the Molecule Man
    * Cyclops, killed by Dr. Doom in Battleworld (even with the Phoenix power)
    * Dr. Strange, also killed by Dr. Doom
    * Thor, dead by cancer
    * Molecule Man, killed by some multiversal entity in Slott's Fantastic Four
    * Starlord, killed by Gamora during the Infinity Wars
    * Terrax, killed by Franklin in Battleworld
    * Namor, beheaded by Hyperion
    * Black Swan, killed by Groot in Battleworld
    * Proxima Midnight, killed by Hela
    * Maximus, killed in a revolution in Battleworld
    * Corvus Glaive, commited suicide before Thanos could execute him
    * Peter Parker, during the Superior Spider-Man thing

    So that leaves us with just Dr. Doom, Mr. Fantastic, Black Panther, Captain Marvel and Miles. Unless there were more deaths in there that I forgot...

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimate Captain America View Post
    Everyone born before 2015 is dead. The only exceptions are Dr. Doom, Dr. Strange, Molecule Man, Mr. Fantastic, Black Panther, Captain Marvel, Star Lord, Thor (Jane Foster), Spider-Man (Peter Parker), Spider-Man (Miles Morales), Thanos, Black Swan, Terrax the truly enlightened (not 616 Terrax), Namor, Proxima Midnight, Maximus, Corvus Glaive and the Maker.

    And from that list, let's remove...
    * Thanos, killed by Dr. Doom in Battleworld
    * The Maker, turned into pizza by the Molecule Man
    * Cyclops, killed by Dr. Doom in Battleworld (even with the Phoenix power)
    * Dr. Strange, also killed by Dr. Doom
    * Thor, dead by cancer
    * Molecule Man, killed by some multiversal entity in Slott's Fantastic Four
    * Starlord, killed by Gamora during the Infinity Wars
    * Terrax, killed by Franklin in Battleworld
    * Namor, beheaded by Hyperion
    * Black Swan, killed by Groot in Battleworld
    * Proxima Midnight, killed by Hela
    * Maximus, killed in a revolution in Battleworld
    * Corvus Glaive, commited suicide before Thanos could execute him
    * Peter Parker, during the Superior Spider-Man thing

    So that leaves us with just Dr. Doom, Mr. Fantastic, Black Panther, Captain Marvel and Miles. Unless there were more deaths in there that I forgot...
    captain marvel died during dark reign
    but was resurrected by storyteller fetuses

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