Earth Σ: What would you like to see?

[Dataweaver]

As I envision it, 1986 to 2003 — with some fuzziness at the tail end.

[scary harpy]

As I envision it, 1986 to 2003 — with some fuzziness at the tail end.

okay.

what time period does Earth-Δ cover?

[Dataweaver]

Mostly 2003 to 2011.

[Dataweaver]

Mostly 2003 to 2011. The first event that I say is definitely Earth-Δ and not Earth-Σ would be Titans/Young Justice: Graduation Day. In the same month (I think), there was a Superman 10¢ Adventure that introduced the Cir-El version of Supergirl and set the ball rolling toward Superman #200; that would also be Earth-Δ, not Earth-Σ.

[dswynne]

Hmm? What does a title published back in 1987 have to do with whether or not the Marvel Family exists in 2003 or later?

What doesn't exist on Earth-Σ is the post-Day of Vengeance Marvel Family, where Billy was recast as the wizard and Freddy started calling himself Shazam. That, and the “Seduction of the Innocent” storyline that trashed Mary, would be part of Earth-Δ, which is a subject for a different thread.

Whoops! I thought Earth-Sigma took place immediately after the Crisis, but before Zero-Hour. In fact, and I read your reason not to, you might have to had two more Earths (one to reflect Zero-Hour, and another to reflect Armageddon 2000).

[Dataweaver]

Earth-Σ doesn't represent a moment in time; it represents an entire timeline, which happens to coincide with the DCU as it was published from 1986 to 2003.

Armageddon 2000 didn't change the timeline; it was merely an early example of Hypertime, with Waverider getting to see a number of possible futures. It doesn't count as the sort of history-altering event that would create a new Metaversal Earth. That said, the various futures that were shown during that event could potentially have become other Earths. I tend to view them as an early example of the Dark Multiverse.

Zero Hour might qualify; it certainly altered the timeline where the Legion of Superheroes was concerned. But as far as the era of Superman was concerned, nothing significant changed: the team that went back to the Dawn of Time made a point not to change anything, and the result was that when they got back, the only thing that they remembered that everyone else forgot was Zero Hour itself. Rather than having a transformative effect, Zero Hour had a stabilizing effect. That's why I didn't specify a separate Earth for it.

[Zaresh]

Earth-Σ doesn't represent a moment in time; it represents an entire timeline, which happens to coincide with the DCU as it was published from 1986 to 2003.

Armageddon 2000 didn't change the timeline; it was merely an early example of Hypertime, with Waverider getting to see a number of possible futures. It doesn't count as the sort of history-altering event that would create a new Metaversal Earth. That said, the various futures that were shown during that event could potentially have become other Earths. I tend to view them as an early example of the Dark Multiverse.

Zero Hour might qualify; it certainly altered the timeline where the Legion of Superheroes was concerned. But as far as the era of Superman was concerned, nothing significant changed: the team that went back to the Dawn of Time made a point not to change anything, and the result was that when they got back, the only thing that they remembered that everyone else forgot was Zero Hour itself. Rather than having a transformative effect, Zero Hour had a stabilizing effect. That's why I didn't specify a separate Earth for it.

When the generations approach appeared, I think I recall @Restingvoice speculating about Zero Hour actually leveling things across G3, taking 10 years from all the characters. It was a guess bassed mostly in how we could fix Damian's and Jon's age and if I'm not mistaken, Suspendium also played some part in the case of the Marvel family.

Aahh~~, that was a fun thread.

[WallyWestFlash]

Great thread. This is by far my favorite DC era and I would love to see this world continue.

I'm glad you separated the post crisis era and the pre Flashpoint into two separate eras as I agree there is a divide. Actual big lchanges definitely start with 03 and the Didio age.

Although personally I would start the cut off a year or two before that at 2000-2001. Mainly because although your right 03 when .Didio took over and definitely Identity crisis marked the start of a new age but I feel the tone that was set from the mid to late 80s and all through the 90s started to change before that at about 2000-2001.

I would continue from the Jurgen era that ended in 99 or maybe even a bit before to picking up right after Superman red Superman.blue. I feel even.though Loeb hadn't taken.over yet but the tone had changed from the last 10-15 years.

Supergirl would continue from Peter David's series.that was ended abruptly.

The Batman line would continue from the Dixon era that went into the late 90's.

Wonder Woman would continue from right at the end of the Byrne era. The Jimenez era went into the early 2000's and had a big tonal shift.

Flash would continue from the end of the Waid era. Maybe a little Into the John's era but not too.much Into it as I feel the tone shifted a lot as well. Definitely not as far as to when the twins were born and almost killed, ignition, ect.

Green Lantern would continue from the end of the Marz era and not really Into the Winnick era that started in 2000. I feel that shift that was made went Into the mid 2000s already.

Aquaman would stop at Obsidian age. No water handOliver would still be dead and Connor would be GA. JLA would continue from right before Kelly took over. Young Justice would be around and Graysons Titans .

[Dataweaver]

As I said, the cut-off point between Earth-Σ and Earth-Δ is fuzzy. For the most part, I agree with your suggestions. With Superman, I might keep Our Worlds At War (mainly because of the impact that it had on Young Justice, which I'd like to keep in full); but stuff like Emperor Joker and Return to Krypton can probably be left on Earth-Δ and not Earth-Σ without any problem.

I don't have a problem with Wally's kids being on Earth-Σ, as long as they're still infants or toddlers. I liked Johns' work with the Rogues; and you can't really have Hunter as the Reverse Flash without the twins. But other than that, we seem to be on the same page.

On the other side of the break, I'd put Giffen's Super Buddies on Earth-Σ, too: for the bulk of the era, they were the Justice League. As the world diverges further from the path that Earth-Δ took, I'd borrow one element from Green Lantern: Rebirth while leaving the rest of it on Earth-Δ: namely, I'd get a power ring for Guy Gardner. The Vuldarian biology thing was horrible. Send him to Qward to acquire a new yellow ring the same way that Sinestro did (more or less), and get him back to ring-slinging. Then have him make amends with the Super Buddies.

[scary harpy]

Okay: so we've got threads for the three new Earths that were named in Doomsday Clock #12: Earth 2, spawned from the Golden Age; Earth-1985, spawned from the Silver Age; and Earth-52, spawned from the New 52. But what about that gap in the middle, between the first Crisis and Flashpoint?

As I see it, there are at least two Earths needed to cover this stretch of meta-history. The first one's history begins in the wake of the Crisis; the second one's history ends with Flashpoint. This thread is intended to deal with the first one.

I'm using the designation Earth-Σ (or Earth-Sigma) for this works because that's the mathematical symbol for “summation”; and this Earth is the summation of the final surviving pre-Crisis Earths: 1, 2, 4, S, and X.

This is the Earth of John Byrne's Man of Steel and runs roughly from there until Superman #200, when his origin was retconned to the Birthright origin. Everything after that — and in fact, some of what came before it — was building up to Infinite Crisis and should be considered to be a part of The next Earth in this sequence, New Earth. In fact, upon closer examination, I think that the start of this Earth can be pegged to an issue if All-Star Squadron featuring a villainess named Mechanique, who had been holding back the full effects of the Crisis for a time; and its end can be pegged to Graduation Day, where a gathering of the Titans and Young Justice was interrupted by a robotic entity from the future called Indigo, with tragic consequences that destroyed the two teams.

On Earth-Sigma, Indigo never showed up. Lilith and Donna were never killed, and neither team disbanded. In the Superman titles, Cir-El never shows up either, and the entire Futuresmiths story arc gets short-circuited before it can even begin. Other titles likewise fail to take the sharp change in course that they did on Earth 0: for example, Robin continues the story arcs that Jon Lewis had been developing, instead of dropping them flat and replacing them with what would prove to be the lead-up to War Games. No Identity Crisis either; and definitely no Infinite Crisis.

Put another way, this isn't so much the pre-Birthright DCU; it's the pre-Didio DCU.

What history would you include on Earth-Σ? Where would you put the cutoff?

1986 to 2002 isn't that different than, say, 1956 to 1986; in fact, it's considerably shorter. There was Zero Hour right in the middle of that timespan; but that's not so much a different era as it is the end of the transition from pre-Crisis to post-Crisis (yes, the transition took a decade to complete).

But that's more of an Earth-Σ thing; Earth-Δ deals with 2003 to 2011.

1986 to 2002 is that different than, say, 1956 to 1986. The thirty years between '56 and '86 were far more stable than the sixteen years between '86 and '02.

On the other hand, Zero Hour and the other crises seem to have negligible effect.

If they were that unimportant, do they need to be acknowledged at all?

[dswynne]

Earth-Σ doesn't represent a moment in time; it represents an entire timeline, which happens to coincide with the DCU as it was published from 1986 to 2003.

Armageddon 2000 didn't change the timeline; it was merely an early example of Hypertime, with Waverider getting to see a number of possible futures. It doesn't count as the sort of history-altering event that would create a new Metaversal Earth. That said, the various futures that were shown during that event could potentially have become other Earths. I tend to view them as an early example of the Dark Multiverse.

Zero Hour might qualify; it certainly altered the timeline where the Legion of Superheroes was concerned. But as far as the era of Superman was concerned, nothing significant changed: the team that went back to the Dawn of Time made a point not to change anything, and the result was that when they got back, the only thing that they remembered that everyone else forgot was Zero Hour itself. Rather than having a transformative effect, Zero Hour had a stabilizing effect. That's why I didn't specify a separate Earth for it.

Fine. Then why is there TWO versions of the Marvel Family: "SHAZAM!: A New Beginning" (Roy Thomas) and "Power of SHAZAM!" (Jerry Ordway)? Seems to me that Zero Hour DID change the DCU, even if its a "blip" (I chose Zero Hour since both PoS and Zero Hour came out that same year, 1994).

Take a look at this wikipedia page on the subject of Zero-Hour's aftermath. Let me know what you think.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero_Hour:_Crisis_in_Time!

[Mr.B]

Only the 4 exist. Rest are fan fiction.

[Shamrock Holmes]

Given that her title finished shortly before the endpoint of this era, I'd like to see Linda Danvers remain as this reality's Supergirl (possibly recovering her full pre-Earthborn Angel powers as Matrix [invisibility, shape-shifting, psychokinesis, super-strength/speed] rather than the slightly more limited powers from the end of #74)

[Dataweaver]

Okay; after thinking about it further, I agree: Earth-Σ should be based on the Crisis to Zero Hour; a separate Earth should cover Zero Hour to Infinite Crisis; and a third Earth, Earth-Δ, should cover Infinite Crisis to Flashpoint. The vast majority of the thread up to this point should actually be transplanted to the Earth Zed topic (though I would have called it Earth-τ, τ bring the symbol for “proper time” in physics), and this one should be repurposed to discussing the Metaversal Earth based on the first decade or so after the Crisis, and how to make it distinct from what came after.

In that vein: while the cutoff is technically Zero Hour, Is actually backtrack a bit, as I do for most of these, removing elements that lead up to the defining Crisis. In this case, I would remove the Death of Superman, Knightfall, and the Trial of Wonder Woman from Earth-Σ and place them as the opening chapter of Earth-τ. How might Earth-Σ have developed without these events?

Obviously, without the Death of Superman you also don't get the Reign of the Supermen, nor Emerald Twilight; Hal never becomes Parallax, and never messes with the timestream; thus, no Zero Hour. So that's the most direct chain of events that prevents this from turning into Earth-τ. We don't get Steel, Superboy, the Last Son of Krypton, the Cyborg Superman, Azbats (or Azrael, for that matter), Bane, or Artemis; and we probably don't get Wonder Girl either. I'd probably complete the set and cut the Flash off just before the first story where Impulse appeared: this is not the Earth of Young Justice. Heck, even Tim's solo series didn't start until after Knightfall; so most of his career as Robin would likely unfold differently on Earth-Σ than on Earth-τ.

This would be the Earth of the Wolfman/Perez New Titans, of Justice League International, and of the “Five Year Gap” Legion of Superheroes.

Not my favorite era (that would be Earth-τ); but definitely its own thing.

[Zaresh]

Titans and JLI were pretty cool, to be honest.