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  1. #136
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Post-Clone Saga, pre-relaunch, the Spidey books were really good. It's kind of a lost era, given that so many fans had already dropped the books by then. But each book had a unique feel specific to its creative team's interests and we got some of the best marriage stuff out of it. Marvel overcompensated for the Clone Saga backlash with the Byrne/Mackie relaunch.

    Also, when people say that JMS single-handedly saved Spider-Man post-relaunch, I feel like they're forgetting Paul Jenkins. And you should never, ever, ever forget Paul Jenkins.

  2. #137
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    Also, when people say that JMS single-handedly saved Spider-Man post-relaunch, I feel like they're forgetting Paul Jenkins. And you should never, ever, ever forget Paul Jenkins.
    What I said about the Clone Saga, "Not everything before the Clone Saga was good, and not everything during the Clone Saga is bad" applies also to the Post-Clone Saga.

    Even in the darkest clouds there are bright spots. I like "Identity Crisis" and "Revenge of the Green Goblin" to name two stories that came from that period.

    But definitely JMS' run restored ASM's prestige and credit.

  3. #138
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    What I said about the Clone Saga, "Not everything before the Clone Saga was good, and not everything during the Clone Saga is bad" applies also to the Post-Clone Saga.

    Even in the darkest clouds there are bright spots. I like "Identity Crisis" and "Revenge of the Green Goblin" to name two stories that came from that period.

    But definitely JMS' run restored ASM's prestige and credit.
    I get what you're saying about ASM. I just feel like Paul Jenkins is the writer whose incredible contributions to the mythos are the most overlooked--primarily because of how far sales had dropped by the time he'd gotten on board, and him doing his best work for a satellite title.

  4. #139
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    I get what you're saying about ASM. I just feel like Paul Jenkins is the writer whose incredible contributions to the mythos are the most overlooked--primarily because of how far sales had dropped by the time he'd gotten on board, and him doing his best work for a satellite title.
    The Clone Saga and Post-Clone Saga downturn and malaise was part of the reason that Ultimate Spider-Man was created. As per Bendis, Bill Jemas felt that Spider-Man, Marvel's flagship character, had become too depressing and was selling too poorly, and they needed to brighten things up again, so he hatched a idea for an AU with a teenage Spider-Man, and that led to Ultimate Spider-Man, and that became the first major instance of an AU ongoing outright outselling the main title and the reason for that was because how much fresher and less cluttered it was compared to the Mackie stuff. I mean imagine reading an ASM title where Spider-Man was a widower frustratingly pining after his wife who nobody in the readership believed was dead for real nor did Peter himself, and who had fallen into a real depressive state, and then reading USM where everyone's young, hip, and alive (except for Ben).

    JMS started after USM's early issues, and sales of ASM rose up when he came in though initially in the first months it still trailed USM but the gap closed quickly.

    Again people who act or pretend that the Clone Saga didn't damage stuff or make a mess of things are in denial, at least that's how I see it.

  5. #140
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Again people who act or pretend that the Clone Saga didn't damage stuff or make a mess of things are in denial, at least that's how I see it.
    Oh, the Clone Saga definitely did lasting damage. And it also introduced concepts and characters that have benefitted Spider-Man. So it's not one or the other for me, personally.

    I think Norman Osborn's resurrection is actually the point where Spider-Man's story became radically less grounded. Norman worked best as the anti-Uncle Ben, a figure who corrupted everything he touched from beyond the grave. Once they brought Norman back, Spider-Man could frustrate his plans again or punch him in the face. But he couldn't do that when Norman was a ghost.

    On the subject of Paul Jenkins, I think if some of his stories had been written for ASM in the 80s, they would be as loved as "The Kid Who Collects Spider-Man."

  6. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The Clone Saga may have ended in 1996 but the damage it inflicted lasted a good while longer. The readership it drove away didn't come back when Mackie took over.
    Because Mackie's run wasn't good. Hence the need for JMS to come in and save the book.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Again people who act or pretend that the Clone Saga didn't damage stuff or make a mess of things are in denial, at least that's how I see it.
    Everyone agrees that the Clone Saga was a botch job.

    Even the fans who enjoyed aspects of it agree that it got out of hand and ultimately became an unwieldy beast.

    No one is in denial about that.

    It's proper to acknowledge its flaws but drastically overreaching to try and make the Clone Saga out to be the Spidey equivalent of the meteor that killed the dinosaurs.

  7. #142
    All-New Member twenty2's Avatar
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    Well bottom line unfortunately Spider-man's continuity is kind of ruined...

    About Ultimate Spider-man it could be depressing as well. That time after Gwen/Carnage story arc was tough...

    Quick though about Mackie's stories from the Byrne era: I've reread some of them recently and I was surprised to find some positive points such as Peter's voice / " though balloons" and the story balance between Spider-man, Peter Parker and secondary characters were good. Better than the current run. The setting and status at the time were really hedious though (editorial on their best...)

    I really liked Jenkis run but somehow is narrative and dialogues never clicked for me. JMS did bring notoriety to the title again.
    Itís like having a big white sheet of paper to draw on! A day full of possibilities!

  8. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Its aftermath and aftershocks negatively affected and hampered Mackie's run, handing him a major mess further hampered by Bob Harras and John Byrne's even worse ideas.

    The Clone Saga may have ended in 1996 but the damage it inflicted lasted a good while longer. The readership it drove away didn't come back when Mackie took over.
    Mackie was one of the Spider-Man writing team before the Clone Saga, during the Clone Saga and after the Clone Saga. He didn't "take over" until two years after the Clone Saga ended.

    The Clone Saga was swept under the rug the moment it finished.

  9. #144
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    (strayan accent) the clone saga stole my baby
    Last edited by boots; 01-16-2020 at 08:58 PM.
    troo fan or death

  10. #145
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boots View Post
    (strayan accent) the clone saga stole my baby
    Good one.

    Course you know the dingo actually did steal that baby so that analogy doesn't work, and in fact making a meme of it did more harm than good.

  11. #146
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    ok, random woman stole mj's baby
    troo fan or death

  12. #147
    All-New Member twenty2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boots View Post
    ok, random woman stole mj's baby
    Don't worry! You can read the true follow up of this amazing characters on Spider-girl!
    Itís like having a big white sheet of paper to draw on! A day full of possibilities!

  13. #148
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    This last part of the conversation has convinced me that Norman Osborn should adopt a new secret identity as "The Dingo"!
    Every day is a gift, not a given right.

  14. #149
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    This last part of the conversation has convinced me that Norman Osborn should adopt a new secret identity as "The Dingo"!
    return of the green dingo- I'm in
    troo fan or death

  15. #150

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    Max Nason of CBR looks at five good Clone Saga stories, and five others.

    https://www.cbr.com/spider-man-best-...-saga-stories/

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