Themes of Each Episode

[Coatl]

As for Luke and Leia, that ultimately comes down to the actors, because while the characters are supposed to be these paragons of virtue and honor in universe, in real life you have one actor who basically hasn't had any real work since the original trilogy, and another who was a recovering drug addict, and both are just too kooky and weird to adequately portray the kind of the dignity and gravitas that the Skywalker name should carry in universe.

What? are we supposed to blame the actors who obviously did a good performance for the shitty guion now? Bullshit!!!! there are been a ton of actors who had passed for drug problems and overcome it, if something is a very hard and respectable fight. And while Mark Hamill most iconic performance he got several jobs and got a good amount of awards not just as actor, but also in games and cartoons, trying to labeled of "nobody" just to excuse shitty disney corporatives, is low (or maybe ignorant), he could have represented a very dignified character if Disney had not insisted in mocking him to make Rey look better.

Frankly, one of the biggest problems of the sequel trilogy was that they were too scared to let the new cast take center stage and leaned way too heavily on the old cast despite the fact that those actors are way past their expiration dates by now and, with the exception of Harrison Ford, never great performers who could carry a movie to begin with.

The biggest issue is that they tried to fund their new cast mocking the old one, if they were treating the old cast with some respect and made and adequate coherent pass the torch before doing their new original history all will be feel more organic. But instead they overwrite any victory made in the first six movies and try to refilm the same plot, just this time with Rey as a "new and more powerful and wise" Luke, and by that, they have to destroy any legalicy that the original trio had made and make them look as morons who forgot all they character development from the previous three movies.

[bob.schoonover]

I don't know if we really need that. The child of a politician and a military leader....I think we can easily see how he may not get all the attention he might want. Add to that the fact that his uncle is a religious guru, who was probably overeager to prove himself a worthy teacher.

I honestly think it's pretty easy to imagine how all three of them could let Ben down in some way. Not that it had to be so, but I can certainly understand it.

It's not that I can't imagine how it might have happened, it's that the way they talk about it strongly suggests there is more to the story than just what is shown in TLJ. Snoke (somehow puppetted by Palpatine perhaps - the degree of manipulation by him is still unclear) had his mitts into Ben before his and Luke's fateful night. Han said Ben had too much of Vader in him - presumably that meant anger - so what did they do to work with Ben? Why did Luke Skywalker, who confronted his father un-armed to try to convince him to run away from the Emperor, who then threw down his weapon in the face of the Dark Side, and whose father overcame everything to defeat Palpatine the first time, not try to reach out to Ben to save him? Or did he and it failed?

I think that stuff does matter, even if we can fill in the gaps with fanon. I don't need to be shown Leia being a distant mother or Han hanging out w/Chewie instead of his son, or Luke spending more time searching for Jedi texts than training his nephew. We don't need a book about Ben the latch-key kid or whatever. Why Ben fell matters, though. How Snoke out-maneuvered Luke matters.

[ChrisIII]

I've read that Abram's main approach to TFA, at least at first was the question "Who is Luke Skywalker?" (according to him and Kasdan).

[WebLurker]

episode 9 theme- seriously I can't say, the movie barely had a story. perhaps, redemption? even if it felt rushed. The character of Rey still does not make sense to me. her ending also is more confusing.

Free will vs. destiny. "Some things are stronger then blood."

this new star wars movies are mindless action fantasy movies.

Not so much.

TFA: "The Call": Each of the major characters is called to something greater beyond their normal lives (Finn to abandon the First Order, Rey to the Jedi path, Han to quit trying to be the man he was and be the man he should be, Kylo to return to the light side) and respond to that in different ways as they decide what they will do. Maybe not a theme in the conventional sense, but common plot threads in the story.

TLJ: "Failure and learning from it," whether it be the mistakes of the past or one's own failings.

[Beaddle]

Free will vs. destiny. "Some things are stronger then blood."



Not so much.

TFA: "The Call": Each of the major characters is called to something greater beyond their normal lives (Finn to abandon the First Order, Rey to the Jedi path, Han to quit trying to be the man he was and be the man he should be, Kylo to return to the light side) and respond to that in different ways as they decide what they will do. Maybe not a theme in the conventional sense, but common plot threads in the story.

TLJ: "Failure and learning from it," whether it be the mistakes of the past or one's own failings.

I don't heavily see it at all and I am a pretty good judger of big movies that have themes and depth that can rival the smaller independent films, these is the reason I am usually picky about my superhero and fantasy films , perhaps if these star wars films were released under Disney/pixar animation the themes would be more noticeable because I would be seeing it from a different angle.

Rey for example, compared to Luke has no real theme to me because the story telling failed her from the onset with jj Abrams' superficial mystery box that usually goes no where and she is the main character in this films, meaning the other characters are worse off.

[WebLurker]

I don't heavily see it at all and I am a pretty good judger of big movies that have themes and depth that can rival the smaller independent films, these is the reason I am usually picky about my superhero and fantasy films , perhaps if these star wars films were released under Disney/pixar animation the themes would be more noticeable because I would be seeing it from a different angle.

Huh.

Rey for example, compared to Luke has no real theme to me because the story telling failed her from the onset with jj Abrams' superficial mystery box that usually goes no where and she is the main character in this films, meaning the other characters are worse off.

No theme? Each movie has her dealing with her past in some way that she needs to overcome for her next stage of development. The mystery box paid off (and was irrelevant to the story after the Takodana scenes, anyways).

[Beaddle]

Huh.

.

You can indeed see it from a different angle because it is okay and acceptable to have derivate watered down themes in an animated feature that is meant for children at heart, that does not translate well to live action films.

No theme? Each movie has her dealing with her past in some way that she needs to overcome for her next stage of development. The mystery box paid off (and was irrelevant to the story after the Takodana scenes, anyways).

the mystery box did not pay off, it has cost more problems and damaged the story to the point I would argue it has destroyed rey as a character and any chance of making her real character than a self insert Mary sue. The prove of this is in the issue of her parentage Spoilers below for those who have not yet seen ROS









They changed rey's origins to papaltine's grand daughter, there was no mystery box at all because this was a last minute change due to some of the faux backlash of last jedi. also what theme exists there? did rey even stop to think and reflect that the emperor was her grand dad? when luke discovered the truth Vader was his father, not only was he blind-sided, he went into denial mode for some time. he was very conflicted not just as a Jedi but as a young man with daddy issues. This is the strong driving theme I am talking about that this new movies lack.

These new star wars movies have no actual themes like many other blockbusters today, to compare the theme of Father and son in ESB and ROTJ to this new movies and Rey supposed family issue is laughable.

[hawkeyefan]

As usual with most modern Disney movies, the themes of their movies are hard to pick point because these are not the driving force of their stories. As a kid,I preferred a new hope to return of the Jedi but when I got older, I grew to love return of the Jedi more even with the Ewoks because return of the Jedi had a stronger theme of Father and son and redemption.

I can pick point richly the themes of 7-9, they are all blurred.

episode 7 theme is adventure and escape

episode 8 theme -downfall


episode 9 theme- seriously I can't say, the movie barely had a story. perhaps, redemption? even if it felt rushed. The character of Rey still does not make sense to me. her ending also is more confusing.

this new star wars movies are mindless action fantasy movies.

They're really not all that different than the original trilogy in that regard. In most cases, it's more that the viewer has changed.

I mean....Rey comes right out and asks her question directly. She needs someone to tell her her place in all this. And the only person who could answer that, regardless of her lineage, was her. Not Luke, not Kylo Ren, not Snoke or the Emperor. She had to decide for herself.

It's not that I can't imagine how it might have happened, it's that the way they talk about it strongly suggests there is more to the story than just what is shown in TLJ. Snoke (somehow puppetted by Palpatine perhaps - the degree of manipulation by him is still unclear) had his mitts into Ben before his and Luke's fateful night. Han said Ben had too much of Vader in him - presumably that meant anger - so what did they do to work with Ben? Why did Luke Skywalker, who confronted his father un-armed to try to convince him to run away from the Emperor, who then threw down his weapon in the face of the Dark Side, and whose father overcame everything to defeat Palpatine the first time, not try to reach out to Ben to save him? Or did he and it failed?

I think that stuff does matter, even if we can fill in the gaps with fanon. I don't need to be shown Leia being a distant mother or Han hanging out w/Chewie instead of his son, or Luke spending more time searching for Jedi texts than training his nephew. We don't need a book about Ben the latch-key kid or whatever. Why Ben fell matters, though. How Snoke out-maneuvered Luke matters.

I hear you. I'm not saying that they could not expand on some of this stuff in a way that could be satisfying. I just don't agree that it's needed. Luke's situation tells us what we need to know....he's mad at himself. He bought into his own hype too much....kind of like the audience, in a meta way. He was a LEGEND. But really, he's just a man. Helping to redeem Anakin after his fall isn't the same as preventing Ben from falling. Luke's not infallible.

Snoke was totally a puppet of the Emperor. They show several tanks in the Emperor's laid on Exogol that have Snoke clones in them.

Free will vs. destiny. "Some things are stronger then blood."

Not so much.

TFA: "The Call": Each of the major characters is called to something greater beyond their normal lives (Finn to abandon the First Order, Rey to the Jedi path, Han to quit trying to be the man he was and be the man he should be, Kylo to return to the light side) and respond to that in different ways as they decide what they will do. Maybe not a theme in the conventional sense, but common plot threads in the story.

TLJ: "Failure and learning from it," whether it be the mistakes of the past or one's own failings.

Good breakdown, thanks for offering some themes. I very much agree on TLJ....Yoda summarizes it well when he says failure is the greatest teacher. All the characters have to fail before they can ultimately succeed. And episode 9 definitely plays with duality and free will versus destiny, for sure.

I actually think the themes are clearer in 8 and 9 than in any other movie.

You can indeed see it from a different angle because it is okay and acceptable to have derivate watered down themes in an animated feature that is meant for children at heart, that does not translate well to live action films.

the mystery box did not pay off, it has cost more problems and damaged the story to the point I would argue it has destroyed rey as a character and any chance of making her real character than a self insert Mary sue. The prove of this is in the issue of her parentage Spoilers below for those who have not yet seen ROS


They changed rey's origins to papaltine's grand daughter, there was no mystery box at all because this was a last minute change due to some of the faux backlash of last jedi. also what theme exists there? did rey even stop to think and reflect that the emperor was her grand dad? when luke discovered the truth Vader was his father, not only was he blind-sided, he went into denial mode for some time. he was very conflicted not just as a Jedi but as a young man with daddy issues. This is the strong driving theme I am talking about that this new movies lack.

Luke went into denial mode for about 3 minutes. We don't really have any time to see how the revelation affects him....he goes from denying it, to leaping from the platform, to escaping on the Falcon, to hearing Vader's telepathic call and acknowledging that he's his father. This all happens in literally 3 minutes of the movie. From the moment that Vader says "I am your father" to when Luke says "Ben, why didn't you tell me?" is 3 minutes and 10 seconds.

The original trilogy isn't this deep dive into psychology when compared to the shallow sequels. They're all pretty similar in this regard. I think it's that the OT has been built up in the mind of the audience, and has benefited from decades of rose colored glasses.

[WebLurker]

You can indeed see it from a different angle because it is okay and acceptable to have derivate watered down themes in an animated feature that is meant for children at heart, that does not translate well to live action films.

I've seen animated films with great maturity and live action movies with as much depth as a piece of paper. Case-by-case is how this always works.

the mystery box did not pay off, it has cost more problems and damaged the story to the point I would argue it has destroyed rey as a character and any chance of making her real character than a self insert Mary sue. The prove of this is in the issue of her parentage Spoilers below for those who have not yet seen ROS

Rey is not a Mary Sue. It was DOA since 2015. It's time for a new theory.

They changed rey's origins to papaltine's grand daughter, there was no mystery box at all because this was a last minute change due to some of the faux backlash of last jedi.

Yeah, not so much.

also what theme exists there?

"Some things are stronger then blood." They literally tell us all this.

did rey even stop to think and reflect that the emperor was her grand dad? when luke discovered the truth Vader was his father, not only was he blind-sided, he went into denial mode for some time. he was very conflicted not just as a Jedi but as a young man with daddy issues.

I take you missed the whole movie's story arc with Rey fearing her seeming inherent draw to the dark side and what that would mean?

This is the strong driving theme I am talking about that this new movies lack.

Funny, it's there, if you look.

Good breakdown, thanks for offering some themes. I very much agree on TLJ....Yoda summarizes it well when he says failure is the greatest teacher. All the characters have to fail before they can ultimately succeed. And episode 9 definitely plays with duality and free will versus destiny, for sure.

I actually think the themes are clearer in 8 and 9 than in any other movie.

Thank you.

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

Episode 4: heroes journey

Episode 5: testing the resolve of the heroes

Episode 6: redemption

Episode 1: trade disputes to move plot along.

Episode 2: love and loss in times of war

Episode 3: How good men become bad and how Democracy's become Empires

Episode 7: heroes journey

Episdoe 8: Letting the past die and passing the torch to embrace new ideas

Episode 9: redemption

[MASTER-OF-SUPRISE]

Episode 1 The phantom Menace. I think the theme would be vigilance. Although I suppose that could be argued for the prequels overall. I feel like the line at the end sums up one of the reasons the Jedi fell. "Always two there are no more, no less a master and an apprentice." The Jedi were convinced the Sith were gone. So when one shows up it takes them by surprise.

Episode 2 Attack of the clones. I would say is on the dangers of assumption. The Jedi assumed they knew Dooku, The jedi librarian assumed there was nothing wrong with the records, Dooku assumed he knew Obi-Wan, and Obi-Wan assumed he knew what Anakin was going to do. You know what they say about assumptions.

Episode 3 I would say dealt with the theme of letting fear and loss control you. Anakin was afraid of loss and was willing to go to the Darkside to prevent it.

Episode 4. A New Hope. While I love this movie nailing a theme for this one hard for me. I would have to say it's biggest theme however is to have hope even in the face of great evil. I mean the film was later subtitled A New hope.

Episode 5. The Empire Strikes Back. I would say a theme is on the dangers of rushing in without thinking. Luke rushed in to face Vader before he was ready. He then proceeded to get completely owned by Vader the minute Vader took the fight seriously.

Episode 6. I would say the theme of hope also appears here. It sort of ties itself into redemption and taking alternative approaches. Forgiveness is also arguably a theme with Luke & Vader.

[Beaddle]

They're really not all that different than the original trilogy in that regard. In most cases, it's more that the viewer has changed.

I mean....Rey comes right out and asks her question directly. She needs someone to tell her her place in all this. And the only person who could answer that, regardless of her lineage, was her. Not Luke, not Kylo Ren, not Snoke or the Emperor. She had to decide for herself.



.

Rey was introduced as a mysterious character. luke was not, we were told from the beginning in a new hope that Luke was the son of Anakin Skywalker, Luke was also driven by a motive, the death of his uncle and aunt. so from the onset luke had a solid story background. rey didn't.

JJ Abrams wanted people to keep speculating about her but he had no plans for her at the time he wrote TFA.

Luke went into denial mode for about 3 minutes. We don't really have any time to see how the revelation affects him....he goes from denying it, to leaping from the platform, to escaping on the Falcon, to hearing Vader's telepathic call and acknowledging that he's his father. This all happens in literally 3 minutes of the movie. From the moment that Vader says "I am your father" to when Luke says "Ben, why didn't you tell me?" is 3 minutes and 10 seconds.

No, I don't believe it. when Luke learns the truth he is completely taken off guard, he spent not just 3 minutes but the last act of ESB in shock and in dismay. In return of the jedi, luke is for most of the first and second act in denial. when he goes to meet yoda, he had to ask if it was true Vader was his dad.

When obiwan explains how it was all from a point of view, luke was still in denial. when he confronts Vader, luke tells Vader that he has accepted the truth that Vader was once Anakin Skywalker my father. which is one of my favourite lines in the entire saga. so luke was not in denial for 3 minutes.

It was taking him time to thought process. Luke even said, if Vader cannot turn to the good side and become Anakin again, then his father is truly dead.

The original trilogy isn't this deep dive into psychology when compared to the shallow sequels. They're all pretty similar in this regard. I think it's that the OT has been built up in the mind of the audience, and has benefited from decades of rose colored glasses.

I call this pulling a Rian Johnson. after the last jedi backlash happened, Mr Rian started to go after the OT in a less positive manner. Star wars is basically religion, it has many themes that has been dealt with like the psychology of darth Vader and many documentary outthere that explains why it speaks to the heart of people for anyone to want to start dismissing them now because Disney messed it up is something that is not going to fly.

[Beaddle]

I've seen animated films with great maturity and live action movies with as much depth as a piece of paper. Case-by-case is how this always works.

.

Not to go off topic. Yes, there are many animated films like that but those animated films from the onset will tell you first, they are not necessarily making the animations for kids. 2018's Into the Spiderverse and The Incredibles is a good example of two great animated films but one was more directed towards a more adult audience that could push the envelope more. I do think this is why Sony did the impossible and beat a Pixar film for an Oscar animated feature.

Rey is not a Mary Sue. It was DOA since 2015. It's time for a new theory.

Ha, I Don't even know what to say about Rey anymore,. have you heard this petition that people want to now change the term Mary sue to Rey Skywalker



Rey has gone beyond a Mary Sue. She is actually the strongest Jedi we have ever seen in a star wars movie with the least amount of training or display of Jedi wisdom.

"Some things are stronger then blood." They literally tell us all this.

No, I don't see it considering Luke was Jerk to her and they could not do much with Leia due to Carrie's passing. The relationship between young Anakin and Qui-Gon Jin in episode 1 fits this theme that somethings are stronger than blood.

Not only did Qui-Gon free Anakin from slavery, promised his mum he would look after Anakin. Qui-Gon offered to train Anakin and forfeit a hire rank in the Jedi Council because he believed in Anakin. Rey does not have that kind of in-depth dynamic with Luke and Leia, again more proof the Disney trilogy has generic shallow story telling. the prequels are better.

I take you missed the whole movie's story arc with Rey fearing her seeming inherent draw to the dark side and what that would mean?

I probably missed it because this new movies have too much action, jokes and cgi, the story don't have time to breathe. rey is in fear one minute than she is the bestest Jedi ever in the next minute

Funny, it's there, if you look.

prequels, its all about the prequels when I want to look at themes.

[motherofpearl1]

I think the problem is Rey was overshadowed by Kylo Ren. Not because he's a man, but he's also a truly fascinating character. And played by a (now) award winning actor.
The OT had the same problem. Luke was the main character, yet from the moment Han Solo walked on screen he also walked away with the film. It's the reason Harrison Ford became a megastar.

But George Lucas did not reduce Han Solo to a bit part player to push Luke, or kill him off so his chosen character could shine ( even though by ROTJ For was done and wanted Han Solo killed off). Han had his own story to tell, alongside Luke and Leia.

I like Rey very much in the first two films, but she was at her best when interacting with Kylo. Which is what gave birth to Reylo. There was more sexual chemistry between Ridley and Driver in that one scene in TFA than her scenes with Poe and Finn throughout the entire trilogy. Unfortunately Disney instead of following this through to a decent conclusion, blew up Rey's character to the extent she was no longer a flesh and blood character but an ideal that few can aspire to. Luke struggled hard to defeat his own dark impulses throughout ROTJ, and very nearly succumbed. Rey thought about it for a minute then immediately proudly chose the side of Light without a moment's thought. Luke was relatable because he was human. Rey isn't, because by the time she finished her arc in TROS she was so good to be true it was embarrassing.
Kylo Ren, meanwhile, had his role reduced to thirty minutes. Even his sacrifice at the end seemed empty, as if he had become someone whose sole purpose was to give up his life to save the more important uber woman.
Lucas would never have done that with Han Solo.

[hawkeyefan]

Rey was introduced as a mysterious character. luke was not, we were told from the beginning in a new hope that Luke was the son of Anakin Skywalker, Luke was also driven by a motive, the death of his uncle and aunt. so from the onset luke had a solid story background. rey didn't.

JJ Abrams wanted people to keep speculating about her but he had no plans for her at the time he wrote TFA.

Luke's backstory was in a constant state of flux as Lucas finalized his ideas. To claim it was some kind of set thing is a bit odd. When the first movie was made, that backstory was very different from what we wound up getting.

With Rey, I wouldn't say that her backstory or set up was all that compelling....all we knew was that she was left behind, and that she had some kind of connection to things. But to imagine that JJ Abrams introduced these elements without having any ideas at all on how they would play out seems a bit irrational. I'm sure that he had some ideas, even if he didn't commit too strongly to any one of them.

No, I don't believe it. when Luke learns the truth he is completely taken off guard, he spent not just 3 minutes but the last act of ESB in shock and in dismay. In return of the jedi, luke is for most of the first and second act in denial. when he goes to meet yoda, he had to ask if it was true Vader was his dad.

When obiwan explains how it was all from a point of view, luke was still in denial. when he confronts Vader, luke tells Vader that he has accepted the truth that Vader was once Anakin Skywalker my father. which is one of my favourite lines in the entire saga. so luke was not in denial for 3 minutes.

It was taking him time to thought process. Luke even said, if Vader cannot turn to the good side and become Anakin again, then his father is truly dead.

It's not about believing. It's literally 3 minutes and 10 seconds in ESB. He does not spend the "last act of ESB in shock and dismay".....he only finds out at the end of the last act. There are about 10 minutes of film left once Vader tells him he's his father. He spends the denouement recovering from their confrontation. Then in Return of the Jedi there is no trace of denial. He speaks to Yoda and Obi-Wan about it, but that's more about confirming the truth and asking why they lied. He at no point doubts that Vader is his father in this film. Yes, he decides to try and redeem Vader rather than kill him, and he talks about Anakin and Vader as if they're separate entities, but I don't think that supports your claim that he was in denial. All of that is an interpretation you've decided to make, that's not really backed by what we see on the screen.

And really, that's fine. Maybe you've read a ton of novels and comics that have been written over the years, and you've spent a lot of time thinking about all this, and that's your take on it. Honestly, that's fine. But the willingness to fill in gaps for the old trilogy, but to resist doing anything remotely similar for the new trilogy is pretty odd.

Many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

I call this pulling a Rian Johnson. after the last jedi backlash happened, Mr Rian started to go after the OT in a less positive manner. Star wars is basically religion, it has many themes that has been dealt with like the psychology of darth Vader and many documentary outthere that explains why it speaks to the heart of people for anyone to want to start dismissing them now because Disney messed it up is something that is not going to fly.

No, it's not a religion. It's a series of adventure stories. All the stuff you describe...the documentaries and analysis and so on....is people getting carried away with it. It's fine to do that....it's fun and if people are into it, then cool. But people let their identities get so wrapped up in it that they then place a level of importance to it that's beyond reason. They raise expectations beyond what's actually achievable. Combine that with the fact that no movie will ever capture the imagination of a 40 year old the way one can a 7 year old....and there you go.

I love the original films.....they're a lot of fun, and they've provided me with a lot of entertainment over the years. I also like the new films....they're also entertaining. I don't need them to be any more than that.

But all this is kind of removed from the idea of the films' themes, which was what I wanted to chat about, so I think I'll limit my reply on this topic to this post.