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  1. #31
    Oni of the Ash Moon Ronin's Avatar
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    The Triumph of Skywalker
    The Original Trilogy follows much of the classic outline of the Heroes Journey with Luke, With another classic of good vs evil, the light vs dark. Ep.4 (Separation) The Ordinary Luke called to adventure. Meets his mentor Obi-Wan. Trials Face the death of his family and his mentor. Use the Force to blow up the Death Star. Ep.5 (Supreme Ordeal) Meeting of the shadow self in Dagobah. The Ordeal, Vader his biggest enemy the killer of his mentor is his father! Ep 6. (Unification) Sacrifice, Luke turned him self in (I'm endangering the mission) so that the Endor mission will be successful. Showdown, it was really a show down between Luke and Palpatine for his fate or his fathers. In the end it was his pleas that turned Anakin from the Dark Side. Resurrection, The Return of the Jedi! Incorporation when in the end he rejoins with Luke and Leia he is now the master of two worlds. Each of the episodes is part of the whole that tells a complete story that cover the Heroes Journey theme. Most see it now as about redemption of Anakin but when it first came out it was more Luke's win over the dark side, over evil. Not only did he beat it he pulled his father back for it too in the Triumph of Skywalker.

    The Fall of Skywalker
    The Prequel Trilogy is a tragedy that follows Anakin's path to the Dark Side. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, and hate leads to suffering. Young Anakin is full of Fear, Yoda says as much in Ep. 1. In Ep. 2. Anakin's fear has lead to anger his mother died and the hands of the sand people and he killed them all in anger... the Women and Children too. In Ep.3 that anger has turned in to hate which destroyed all he cared for has his contempt for the Jedi was fed by Palpatine. Anakin literally said "I hate them" in the movie. Thus with the big NOOOOOOO! in the end is Anakin's suffering. Again each episode telling a complete story as a whole of the tragic Fall of Anakin Skywalker

    The Legacy of Skywalker (if anything)
    The Sequel Trilogy is a hot mess. Unlike the first two trilogies there really isn't a flow connecting the story. Ep.7 is everything that that was old is new again embrace the past while moving to the future with side running similarities to Ep.4. Ep.8 is the only way to move to the future is to kill the past, failure, and what you care about really doesn't matter and lots of shades of grey. Ep.9 Good vs Evil but more of an inner battle than physical, Rey has to deal with her lineage Ben has to deal with the deeds he has committed in the past. Each episode really is not part of a whole and oddly enough you can watch t 7 and 9 and kind of get the just of the whole thing with out even watching 8. But in the end it is Rey that takes the name to honor the Legacy of Skywalker.
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  2. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    The Triumph of Skywalker
    The Original Trilogy follows much of the classic outline of the Heroes Journey with Luke, With another classic of good vs evil, the light vs dark. Ep.4 (Separation) The Ordinary Luke called to adventure. Meets his mentor Obi-Wan. Trials Face the death of his family and his mentor. Use the Force to blow up the Death Star. Ep.5 (Supreme Ordeal) Meeting of the shadow self in Dagobah. The Ordeal, Vader his biggest enemy the killer of his mentor is his father! Ep 6. (Unification) Sacrifice, Luke turned him self in (I'm endangering the mission) so that the Endor mission will be successful. Showdown, it was really a show down between Luke and Palpatine for his fate or his fathers. In the end it was his pleas that turned Anakin from the Dark Side. Resurrection, The Return of the Jedi! Incorporation when in the end he rejoins with Luke and Leia he is now the master of two worlds. Each of the episodes is part of the whole that tells a complete story that cover the Heroes Journey theme. Most see it now as about redemption of Anakin but when it first came out it was more Luke's win over the dark side, over evil. Not only did he beat it he pulled his father back for it too in the Triumph of Skywalker.

    The Fall of Skywalker
    The Prequel Trilogy is a tragedy that follows Anakin's path to the Dark Side. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, and hate leads to suffering. Young Anakin is full of Fear, Yoda says as much in Ep. 1. In Ep. 2. Anakin's fear has lead to anger his mother died and the hands of the sand people and he killed them all in anger... the Women and Children too. In Ep.3 that anger has turned in to hate which destroyed all he cared for has his contempt for the Jedi was fed by Palpatine. Anakin literally said "I hate them" in the movie. Thus with the big NOOOOOOO! in the end is Anakin's suffering. Again each episode telling a complete story as a whole of the tragic Fall of Anakin Skywalker

    The Legacy of Skywalker (if anything)
    The Sequel Trilogy is a hot mess. Unlike the first two trilogies there really isn't a flow connecting the story. Ep.7 is everything that that was old is new again embrace the past while moving to the future with side running similarities to Ep.4. Ep.8 is the only way to move to the future is to kill the past, failure, and what you care about really doesn't matter and lots of shades of grey. Ep.9 Good vs Evil but more of an inner battle than physical, Rey has to deal with her lineage Ben has to deal with the deeds he has committed in the past. Each episode really is not part of a whole and oddly enough you can watch t 7 and 9 and kind of get the just of the whole thing with out even watching 8. But in the end it is Rey that takes the name to honor the Legacy of Skywalker.
    I never really liked the whole kill the past thing. I don't know if it was the intended message of the movie but it was by far the most consistent with it. I think that's one of the reasons why I didn't like episode 8.

  3. #33
    Oni of the Ash Moon Ronin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MASTER-OF-SUPRISE View Post
    I never really liked the whole kill the past thing. I don't know if it was the intended message of the movie but it was by far the most consistent with it. I think that's one of the reasons why I didn't like episode 8.
    It seemed in complete contrast of the movie before it that celebrated the past. Now in the end, it turn out that it was not what it was about at all. Luke didn't turn his back and let the Jedi die as Rey seemed to want to continue the legacy of the Jedi by taking the books from the tree library. Finn picked a side even after DJ showed that you are just picking a side of the same coin. Ben killed his Sith master to take his place. There are too many holes in Poe's story to really get what he did. In the end it wasn't the theme to let the past die at all but it was what most people came away with.
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  4. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    It seemed in complete contrast of the movie before it that celebrated the past. Now in the end, it turn out that it was not what it was about at all. Luke didn't turn his back and let the Jedi die as Rey seemed to want to continue the legacy of the Jedi by taking the books from the tree library. Finn picked a side even after DJ showed that you are just picking a side of the same coin. Ben killed his Sith master to take his place. There are too many holes in Poe's story to really get what he did. In the end it wasn't the theme to let the past die at all but it was what most people came away with.
    I think the problem is that there's no real counterargument against Kylo's kill the past mantra. Sure it's refuted but not given much reason to be. There's no real reason for Luke's 180 unless Yoda's cane is a literal clue stick. Poe's arc I think is supposed to be something about leadership but comes off as follow orders blindly without question.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    It seemed in complete contrast of the movie before it that celebrated the past. Now in the end, it turn out that it was not what it was about at all.
    The point of the movie was learning from failure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    Luke didn't turn his back and let the Jedi die as Rey seemed to want to continue the legacy of the Jedi by taking the books from the tree library.
    Yeah, realizing his mistake about waiting for the Jedi to die off with him was the final state of his story arc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    Finn picked a side even after DJ showed that you are just picking a side of the same coin.
    No, DJ's argument was "only look out for number one," an extreme extrapolation of Finn's current state of his top priorities being his own survival and those of some select people he cared about (up til his choosing to serve the Resistance in the final act, every time he put his neck out to help the First Order was ultimately to help Rey in one way or another).

    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    Ben killed his Sith master to take his place.
    Yeah, taking "let the past die" literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    There are too many holes in Poe's story to really get what he did.
    His story was learning how to be a proper leader. That's petty straightforward.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    In the end it wasn't the theme to let the past die at all but it was what most people came away with.
    It's showing what not to do with taking stock from the mistakes of the past.

    Quote Originally Posted by MASTER-OF-SUPRISE View Post
    I think the problem is that there's no real counterargument against Kylo's kill the past mantra. Sure it's refuted but not given much reason to be.
    That is literally what Luke's story arc is about; he's adopted a similar mindset to Kylo's (just a more passive and non-oppressive method).

    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    There's no real reason for Luke's 180 unless Yoda's cane is a literal clue stick.
    Luke's reason for exile in the first place was believing that he'd failed and could not get on track again. Yoda turned him around by making the point that even if he had screwed up, that did not make him a failure. What did was his decision to give up instead of trying again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    Poe's arc I think is supposed to be something about leadership but comes off as follow orders blindly without question.
    No, it's all about not being reckless in one's leadership. The part about his not trusting the leader who was not keeping him in the loop is more an example of Poe's recklessness is a danger.
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  6. #36

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    @Weblurker: Okay why is it quoting moon ronin for my sentences? My problem with Luke's arc is that I don't see a reason for him becoming Luke again at the end of the film. Sure he goes from Jake Skywalker at the begining to Luke Skywalker at the end. He only goes back to being Luke after the tree is lit on fire. Rey was clearly not getting trough to him. So why does Yoda tricking him into thinking the books are gone spur him back into action?

    What am I missing here? How does Yoda burning a tree that he thinks has the Jedi text teach him that lesson? It just doesn't make sense to me.

  7. #37
    Oni of the Ash Moon Ronin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    The point of the movie was learning from failure.
    And Johnson failed at making that point turning it as some kind of Jedi after school special, not even sure if the current generation knows what an after school special is.
    Luke's story seems forced as it is hard for many to accept a self beaten Luke Skywalker. He went from "We need to save the princess", "I have to go help my friends", "I will bring my father back from the Dark Side" to my nephew had some bad thoughts so killing him crossed my mind. Luke could fail teaching but it was really out of place for him to run away and wait for every thing go just die out. His changing his mind did not seem organic either for the longest Star Wars movie to date some parts seemed rushed.

    Finn's story side quest to Canto Bight was pretty much nothing. And yes DJ (Don't Join) told him the only side to pick was his own evidenced by what he showed him in the arms dealer's ship "Good guys, bad guys, made-up words". Finn's story also felt like he was Rose's tag along. And Finns failure was really not his on and the choice he made to join Resistance really did not stem from his failure to disable to the tracking from Snokes ship. In the end this movie really did nothing for Finn and that is sad because the former Strom Trooper to a leader of the Resistance is a great story.

    Poe. If he had not pushed and taken out the Dreadnought that could demolish the Resistance base from high orbit their low speed space chase that happen though out the entire movie would have been over rather quickly. Leia should have had the ability to call back all ships but she seemed to only have contact with Poe's ship. Leia had also demoted Poe but left in in a command position so he technically should have still been in the loop. Holdo's mission brief was more of a political speech of hope and sunshine than a tactical explanation of a combat situation. Also having already been punished by demotion Holdo saw to punish Poe further by sending him to his quarters and keeping him out of the loop. This is Holdo failure. Poe who has, a high combat situational awareness, proven leadership among the Resistance, and a very capable pilot should not have been pushed aside in a heightened combat zone. Disciplinary action should be taken after the hostilities are over unless a clear and present danger is present not to teach a lesson. If not for Holdo's poor leadership Finn would not have made his useless trip to Canto Bight met DJ got caught by the First Order who then found out about the exodus of the Resistance to Crait. Poe (and it would seem others who joined the munity agreeed) saw Holdo's leader ship a clear and present danger to the survival of the of the Resistance. Holdo's poor leadership is the actual reason so many people died on the way to Crait. Poe arch is full have plot holes just to create some kind of failure narrative. It is a failure in story telling as I can keep going with what Poe does on Crait actually takes away from his combat situational awareness and makes him a less effective leader. Poe's story is don't make the hard choices that a military leader has to make that may end in sacrifice, pull back and let luck and chance save the day.

    I may be a little picky with Poe's story line here as I've actually been in combat and the ability to suspend my belief of how the roles should have been played is difficult.
    Last edited by Moon Ronin; 01-17-2020 at 12:27 PM.
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  8. #38
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MASTER-OF-SUPRISE View Post
    @Weblurker: Okay why is it quoting moon ronin for my sentences?
    Sorry, think I copied and pasted wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by MASTER-OF-SUPRISE View Post
    My problem with Luke's arc is that I don't see a reason for him becoming Luke again at the end of the film. Sure he goes from Jake Skywalker at the begining to Luke Skywalker at the end. He only goes back to being Luke after the tree is lit on fire. Rey was clearly not getting trough to him. So why does Yoda tricking him into thinking the books are gone spur him back into action?

    What am I missing here? How does Yoda burning a tree that he thinks has the Jedi text teach him that lesson? It just doesn't make sense to me.
    It's the speech after the tree was burned that's the turning point. Besides, Luke had changed his mind and was going to go back with Rey when he found her Force Skyping with Kylo, so it wasn't that to many a steps away.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    And Johnson failed at making that point turning it as some kind of Jedi after school special, not even sure if the current generation knows what an after school special is.
    I know what that is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    Luke's story seems forced as it is hard for many to accept a self beaten Luke Skywalker. He went from "We need to save the princess", "I have to go help my friends", "I will bring my father back from the Dark Side" to my nephew had some bad thoughts so killing him crossed my mind.
    I really don't get that. Rewatch ROTJ, specifically the scene where Vader threatens to corrupt Leia if Luke won't turn. Luke's behavior with Kylo -- who had fallen to the dark side at this point, remember, and was going to be responsible for the destruction of everything -- is quite in character with what came before.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    Luke could fail teaching but it was really out of place for him to run away and wait for every thing go just die out. His changing his mind did not seem organic either for the longest Star Wars movie to date some parts seemed rushed.
    No one is the same person they were decades earlier. Besides, Luke's exile was based on his two considered failures; the destruction of his school and murder of his students and his consideration to kill Kylo to prevent all that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    Finn's story side quest to Canto Bight was pretty much nothing. And yes DJ (Don't Join) told him the only side to pick was his own evidenced by what he showed him in the arms dealer's ship "Good guys, bad guys, made-up words". Finn's story also felt like he was Rose's tag along. And Finns failure was really not his on and the choice he made to join Resistance really did not stem from his failure to disable to the tracking from Snokes ship. In the end this movie really did nothing for Finn and that is sad because the former Strom Trooper to a leader of the Resistance is a great story.
    That makes no sense. Easiest way to explain this is that DJ is the devil on the shoulder and Rose is the angel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    Poe. If he had not pushed and taken out the Dreadnought that could demolish the Resistance base from high orbit their low speed space chase that happen though out the entire movie would have been over rather quickly. Leia should have had the ability to call back all ships but she seemed to only have contact with Poe's ship. Leia had also demoted Poe but left in in a command position so he technically should have still been in the loop. Holdo's mission brief was more of a political speech of hope and sunshine than a tactical explanation of a combat situation. Also having already been punished by demotion Holdo saw to punish Poe further by sending him to his quarters and keeping him out of the loop. This is Holdo failure. Poe who has, a high combat situational awareness, proven leadership among the Resistance, and a very capable pilot should not have been pushed aside in a heightened combat zone. Disciplinary action should be taken after the hostilities are over unless a clear and present danger is present not to teach a lesson. If not for Holdo's poor leadership Finn would not have made his useless trip to Canto Bight met DJ got caught by the First Order who then found out about the exodus of the Resistance to Crait. Poe (and it would seem others who joined the munity agreeed) saw Holdo's leader ship a clear and present danger to the survival of the of the Resistance. Holdo's poor leadership is the actual reason so many people died on the way to Crait. Poe arch is full have plot holes just to create some kind of failure narrative. It is a failure in story telling as I can keep going with what Poe does on Crait actually takes away from his combat situational awareness and makes him a less effective leader. Poe's story is don't make the hard choices that a military leader has to make that may end in sacrifice, pull back and let luck and chance save the day.

    I may be a little picky with Poe's story line here as I've actually been in combat and the ability to suspend my belief of how the roles should have been played is difficult.
    Whatever. (Funny thing is, I have heard online that there are military fans who are pretty shocked at Poe's expecting to be given information above his pay grade, but that's only secondhand.)
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  9. #39

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    @Weblurker: I feel like the idea that Rey was getting trough to Luke wasn't presented well if true. I personally felt it was clear that he had no bonding with Rey. He was just annoyed with her throughout the film. I still don't get how Yoda's speech changed his mind. He couldn't go through with burning the tree so Yoda did it for him is the most I understood. I feel like Luke's arc had the exact opposite problem of the soapbox sadie speech on canto bight. Where Canto Bight was too overt the tree burning was too subtle.

    I really can't agree with the Tent Scene. IMO there is a galaxy of difference between that scene and him finally going berserk on Vader. Those two scenes are nothing alike. Vader was a mass murder and Luke had to have been aware of Vader's crimes since the guy wasn't subtle. Ben had not actually done anything yet.

    If you don't mind me interjecting into the arc with Poe. I've seen the opposite where people who claim to be former military claim Holdo was wrong in how she handled things. Secondhand information though. I think Poe's arc really only works if you consider Holdo a good leader. Thing is both myself and Moon Ronin don't have that opinion. Honestly I think she was a terrible leader.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by MASTER-OF-SUPRISE View Post
    @Weblurker: I feel like the idea that Rey was getting trough to Luke wasn't presented well if true. I personally felt it was clear that he had no bonding with Rey. He was just annoyed with her throughout the film. I still don't get how Yoda's speech changed his mind. He couldn't go through with burning the tree so Yoda did it for him is the most I understood. I feel like Luke's arc had the exact opposite problem of the soapbox sadie speech on canto bight. Where Canto Bight was too overt the tree burning was too subtle.

    I really can't agree with the Tent Scene. IMO there is a galaxy of difference between that scene and him finally going berserk on Vader. Those two scenes are nothing alike. Vader was a mass murder and Luke had to have been aware of Vader's crimes since the guy wasn't subtle. Ben had not actually done anything yet.

    If you don't mind me interjecting into the arc with Poe. I've seen the opposite where people who claim to be former military claim Holdo was wrong in how she handled things. Secondhand information though. I think Poe's arc really only works if you consider Holdo a good leader. Thing is both myself and Moon Ronin don't have that opinion. Honestly I think she was a terrible leader.
    I think what TLJ did was show people make mistakes.
    Rey made mistakes, but not in her well meaning attempt to'turn' Ben, but because she failed to think it through properly. Could he really have dropped everything and gone with her to the Resistance? Just imagine the reception he'd receive.
    Kylo made mistakes. He genuinely loved Rey by trying to make her feel as if he was the only one who wanted her wasn't the way to win her heart. Ironically that term could more accurately be applied to him.
    Leia already made mistakes, by how she treated her son.
    Poe got half his comrades killed.
    Rose started out as a fanatic tasering any understandably frightened runaway for wanting to leave a doomed fleet and calling them traitors.
    Luke.....well, perhaps he should once or twice acted like Ben's uncle not his master.
    Holdo's mistake was the way she acted with Poe. What she should have done was simply ask him to trust her, like he trusted Leia. Instead she made a point of belittling him, which was unnecessary. Leia had already chewed his ear off and demoted him, he didn't need to hear it twice!

  11. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by motherofpearl1 View Post
    I think what TLJ did was show people make mistakes.
    Rey made mistakes, but not in her well meaning attempt to'turn' Ben, but because she failed to think it through properly. Could he really have dropped everything and gone with her to the Resistance? Just imagine the reception he'd receive.
    Kylo made mistakes. He genuinely loved Rey by trying to make her feel as if he was the only one who wanted her wasn't the way to win her heart. Ironically that term could more accurately be applied to him.
    Leia already made mistakes, by how she treated her son.
    Poe got half his comrades killed.
    Rose started out as a fanatic tasering any understandably frightened runaway for wanting to leave a doomed fleet and calling them traitors.
    Luke.....well, perhaps he should once or twice acted like Ben's uncle not his master.
    Holdo's mistake was the way she acted with Poe. What she should have done was simply ask him to trust her, like he trusted Leia. Instead she made a point of belittling him, which was unnecessary. Leia had already chewed his ear off and demoted him, he didn't need to hear it twice!
    I’m pretty sure only Rey, Leia, and Finn knew what he looked like without the mask. So I always thought he had a get out of jail free card there. It wasn’t until Crait the resistance knew what he looked like.

  12. #42
    Oni of the Ash Moon Ronin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MASTER-OF-SUPRISE View Post
    I’m pretty sure only Rey, Leia, and Finn knew what he looked like without the mask. So I always thought he had a get out of jail free card there. It wasn’t until Crait the resistance knew what he looked like.
    To think that Chewy was gonna just let Kilo Ren with a bygones be bygones after what he did to Han is not gonna happen. or the him and Finn were not gonna be friends of any sort. Also Ben has brought so much death and destruction to the universe and to his family living with himself would have been more torture, Same reason Vader/Anakin had to die at the end of Jedi. There was no way that he could have stayed.
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  13. #43
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    Regarding Luke's change of heart, there is a deleted scene with Luke's third lesson in which it's a partial prank, but still trying to explain why the Jedi aren't needed. However, Rey then shames Luke, who comes off as a bit hurt.
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  14. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    To think that Chewy was gonna just let Kilo Ren with a bygones be bygones after what he did to Han is not gonna happen. or the him and Finn were not gonna be friends of any sort. Also Ben has brought so much death and destruction to the universe and to his family living with himself would have been more torture, Same reason Vader/Anakin had to die at the end of Jedi. There was no way that he could have stayed.
    Okay point taken.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisIII View Post
    Regarding Luke's change of heart, there is a deleted scene with Luke's third lesson in which it's a partial prank, but still trying to explain why the Jedi aren't needed. However, Rey then shames Luke, who comes off as a bit hurt.
    I know the scene you're talking about. However I never felt it showed her get through to Luke.

  15. #45
    Astonishing Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    It's too bad the Chewie/Ren scene shown in some of the concept art for TROS never happened (Unless it was filmed and shows up in deleted scenes on the Blu-ray). It's kind of obvious that the two would probably have at least some history during Ben's early years.
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