The JSA Back On Main Earth

[dswynne]

I voted "neither/both".

I liked what they initially tried to do with "Earth-2", with a modern take of the Justice Society, with a young Alan Scott and company. I hated that they shoe-horned all things Apocalypse, culminating in the death of that world's Pa Kent. Bleh. But, again, I liked the modern take of the JSA, so that should stay.

I also liked the legacy aspect of the JSA, too, so that should remain on Earth-0.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I like them on the main Earth. To me, the impact of Superman and Batman has never really been about them being the first. At least, that's never been the most important part of it. To me, the impact of Superman and Batman more so comes from the fact that they're just the best, from an in-universe perspective. However, the JSA still have their purpose as being the ones who came first. They're the generation that pioneered the very concept of a hero.

In regard to the in-continuity problems of having them forever tied to the JSA, I get it. It's a legitimate concern, but this is comics. There are numerous ways they can explain why these guys who are almost 100 are still up and running around. I mean, they've been able to explain it away before. It's also not unprecedented. Look at Magneto. The origin of one of Marvel's most popular and prominent villains is explicitly tied to WWII, but he's still up and running.

[jetengine]

Why is the JSAs 1940s debut a big deal in a medium that casually accepts and applauds Caps frozen origin (which indeed gets better the longer it goes)

[CaptCleghorn]

Why is the JSAs 1940s debut a big deal in a medium that casually accepts and applauds Caps frozen origin (which indeed gets better the longer it goes)

Cap had a timejump so he came out of it still young and the same age as his other superhero buddies. When the JSA was reintroduced in a JLA teamup, they were noted as older. Granted, having heroes in their 40s wasn't too drastic, but now that they're all getting the hundredth birthdays, it's awkward for those who don't have the powers or abilities to still fight crime at that age.

[married guy]

Personally, I don't mind as long as they're back!

[Jon Clark]

I prefer the Golden Age heroes not to be reworked for a Clutter Earth. The Trinity (especially Wonder Woman) were part of the JSA and should be still. They should have a history and a legacy that can't exist if we are trying to make the modern DCU the center of the show. It would be like trying to use the League on an Earth built off the Titans.

I prefer the JSA and All-Star Squadron to be more than footnotes with the Infinitors playing a large role as their successors and the Stargirl/Cyclone/JJ Thunder generations being the next generation. A world where Amazing Man is an icon rather than a footnote behind Black Lightning, Steel and Vixen. A world where Alan Scott isn't operating alongside Oan ring bearers and Hawkman can have a Thanagar free history. A world where Power Girl can be Superman's cousin without having to replace or compete with Supergirl.

[SiegePerilous02]

They belong on their own Earth. Continuity was less of a mess before Clutter Earth became a thing. There are very few benefits to them being on the main Earth and way more drawbacks. Superman loses his status as the first superhero and we get continuity headaches for characters like Power Girl, the Hawks and the Fury, and others like Helena Wayne cannot be allowed to exist.

What's the benefit? The Flashes can hang out more easily which is nice, but that's about it. And even with them, speedsters hanging out across the Multiverse is a thing.

I like them on the main Earth. To me, the impact of Superman and Batman has never really been about them being the first. At least, that's never been the most important part of it. To me, the impact of Superman and Batman more so comes from the fact that they're just the best, from an in-universe perspective. However, the JSA still have their purpose as being the ones who came first. They're the generation that pioneered the very concept of a hero.

In regard to the in-continuity problems of having them forever tied to the JSA, I get it. It's a legitimate concern, but this is comics. There are numerous ways they can explain why these guys who are almost 100 are still up and running around. I mean, they've been able to explain it away before. It's also not unprecedented. Look at Magneto. The origin of one of Marvel's most popular and prominent villains is explicitly tied to WWII, but he's still up and running.

But in reality Superman and Batman (and Wonder Woman) were part of that generation that pioneered the concept of a hero. Both in universe (until COIE) and more importantly out of universe, the JSA don't exist without Superman coming first. All of this came about as a direct response to the success of Action Comics #1. So it always reads as false because we can look at the historical comics and see with ease that that's not how it played out.

There is a sliding timescale, but all these explanations are often ridiculous and only come about to solve a problem. So eliminate the problem and just put them back on Earth-2 where the timeline doesn't have to match up with ours. It could still be set in the 80s. Because all their kids should be Boomer age by now, but they are almost all the age of millennials. The JSA should have grandkids or great grand kids by now. Time doesn't stop moving, so either cut the WWII link or move them out of the main line because hoops are constantly going to be jumped through to justify why they are still around.

Why is the JSAs 1940s debut a big deal in a medium that casually accepts and applauds Caps frozen origin (which indeed gets better the longer it goes)

Cap is just one character with an easily understandable reason for why he's still young (frozen in ice), and he can be thawed out whenever Marvel's sliding timescale requires him to be and he still works as a character. This is one hero vs. an entire generation of heroes who don't have a simple explanation And who, let's face, are not as big of a deal to their respective shared universe as Cap is for his.

[Tzigone]

But in reality Superman and Batman (and Wonder Woman) were part of that generation that pioneered the concept of a hero. Both in universe (until COIE) and more importantly out of universe, the JSA don't exist without Superman coming first. All of this came about as a direct response to the success of Action Comics #1. So it always reads as false because we can look at the historical comics and see with ease that that's not how it played out.

Absolutely. Superman first. Then Batman and Robin and Wonder Woman. Well, Robin before the JSA and after some of its members but WW shortly debuted shortly after the JSA as a team. Still, Batman and Superman definitely predate.

I like the trinity as peers - all starting heroic careers at a similar time (within a two year window at most), but with Superman first. Actually, this is a big reason I don't like Clark as Superboy- Superman was the first superhero of DC. Also, for the fairly equal experience I like for the trinity in the early days. Making WW a rookie in post-COIE while the others are veterans or a long-time veteran when the others are rookies is also not my preferred version. Dick's level of experience is also pretty important to me, so I don't like Donna-toddler rescued by Diana for that reason - it doesn't time out. Still better than any other origin of hers, though. Ollie and Roy are somewhat less important in timing to me, despite early premiere. I mean, I think they should be early, but the idea of Roy starting after Barry debuts doesn't bother me nearly as much as moving Dick to that late. Probably because, as Superman is the first hero, Robin is the first sidekick, and it matters to me that he has more experience than many of the heroes that are adults when he's still a kid. Really, he came before Diana. I'm willing to move him a little later for the sake of other timeline issues, but only so much.

Cap is just one character with an easily understandable reason for why he's still young (frozen in ice), and he can be thawed out whenever Marvel's sliding timescale requires him to be and he still works as a character. This is one hero vs. an entire generation of heroes who don't have a simple explanation And who, let's face, are not as big of a deal to their respective shared universe as Cap is for his.

Exactly. Cap was always thawed out "X years ago", whether that was 1970 or 2070. Just the time in stasis changes. The JSA lives through the era, and that causes a problem. Also, Cap doesn't displace a "first" the was the JSA do Superman. Or have the issue of all the same-names.

[CaptCleghorn]

I like them on the main Earth. To me, the impact of Superman and Batman has never really been about them being the first. At least, that's never been the most important part of it. To me, the impact of Superman and Batman more so comes from the fact that they're just the best, from an in-universe perspective. However, the JSA still have their purpose as being the ones who came first. They're the generation that pioneered the very concept of a hero.

In regard to the in-continuity problems of having them forever tied to the JSA, I get it. It's a legitimate concern, but this is comics. There are numerous ways they can explain why these guys who are almost 100 are still up and running around. I mean, they've been able to explain it away before. It's also not unprecedented. Look at Magneto. The origin of one of Marvel's most popular and prominent villains is explicitly tied to WWII, but he's still up and running.

You're correct in stating that "this is comics". But the problem isn't that a reason can't be written, it's that a reason hasn't been written. In my time on JSA threads, I've seen many ideas about explaining the ages of the characters. DC just hasn't taken that step.

[Flash Gordon]

Why is the JSAs 1940s debut a big deal in a medium that casually accepts and applauds Caps frozen origin (which indeed gets better the longer it goes)

Captain America is one man, and a really important figure in his universe.

An entire generation of heroes being over 100 years old, while normal people toil and die- it's a bit too much. Let them be the source of inspiration for new characters and provide a history and context for the world of those new fellas.

An Untold Tales book can always show what Ted Knight was up to in 1952, or what Wesley Dodds did in 1939.

[Frontier]

It's hard for me to imagine a JSA team, modern or otherwise, without Jay Garrick, Alan Scott, or Ted Grant.

[Flash Gordon]

It's hard for me to imagine a JSA team, modern or otherwise, without Jay Garrick, Alan Scott, or Ted Grant.

Plenty of room for them in stories set in the past, or time travel related mumbo jumbo.

[DrNewGod]

Captain America is one man, and a really important figure in his universe.

An entire generation of heroes being over 100 years old, while normal people toil and die- it's a bit too much. Let them be the source of inspiration for new characters and provide a history and context for the world of those new fellas.

An Untold Tales book can always show what Ted Knight was up to in 1952, or what Wesley Dodds did in 1939.

I tend toward Flash Gordon's view myself. But there's room for nuance.

My main preference would be to set them on their own world, debuting in 1938 on, complete with a Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman of their own. My answer to the "how old are they" issue would be to go to Bates and Maggins' solution that time passes more slowly on E2, and so it seems to perpetually be 1980. Star them in an Astro City-type book where you can leap about in time for a wide variety of adventures.

[SiegePerilous02]

I tend toward Flash Gordon's view myself. But there's room for nuance.

My main preference would be to set them on their own world, debuting in 1938 on, complete with a Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman of their own. My answer to the "how old are they" issue would be to go to Bates and Maggins' solution that time passes more slowly on E2, and so it seems to perpetually be 1980. Star them in an Astro City-type book where you can leap about in time for a wide variety of adventures.

Yeah, there is more freedom for this on their own Earth. And again, certain characters have an easier time existing as they were meant to with this setup. Can anyone really say Power Girl is a better character without her simpler original origin? She's also redundant with Kara around since they are basically the same person. Similarly, I don't thunk Fury works as well unless she's the daughter of Golden Age WW and Steve Trevor. Her story in the Sandman would have a lot more weight behind it with that connection. And Helena Wayne having all traces of her existence winked out by an uncaring universe soon before she dies and everyone forgets she ever existed is one of the most horrifying things I think DC ever did to a character.

The JLA and the JSA are just millstones around each other's necks when they are on the same Earth.

[deadman322]

how long before dc starts burying them to put the justice league over?