The JSA Back On Main Earth

[achilles]

Yeah, there is more freedom for this on their own Earth. And again, certain characters have an easier time existing as they were meant to with this setup. Can anyone really say Power Girl is a better character without her simpler original origin? She's also redundant with Kara around since they are basically the same person. Similarly, I don't thunk Fury works as well unless she's the daughter of Golden Age WW and Steve Trevor. Her story in the Sandman would have a lot more weight behind it with that connection. And Helena Wayne having all traces of her existence winked out by an uncaring universe soon before she dies and everyone forgets she ever existed is one of the most horrifying things I think DC ever did to a character.

The JLA and the JSA are just millstones around each other's necks when they are on the same Earth.

Yes, people actually can say that Power Girl is a better character. After all, part of the reason she was created was that Supergirl was bland and boring. And ever since SG was brought back, they've been moving her toward elements of PG's personality, though often going overboard. But there's no reason the two can't co-exist on the same Earth.

It's all an element of whatever your personal taste is. My own taste is that the JLA and the JSA get along fine together on the same Earth.

[SiegePerilous02]

Yes, people actually can say that Power Girl is a better character. After all, part of the reason she was created was that Supergirl was bland and boring. And ever since SG was brought back, they've been moving her toward elements of PG's personality, though often going overboard. But there's no reason the two can't co-exist on the same Earth.

It's all an element of whatever your personal taste is. My own taste is that the JLA and the JSA get along fine together on the same Earth.

How much of her being a better character these days has anything to do with her origin tweaks, which often always bring a character down because they are distracting nonsense?
Citation for her being created because Supergirl was boring?

Karen was created to be the Earth-2 equivalent of Kara. She is literally Kara Zor-L, daughter of Zor-L. Its like having Kal-El and Kal-L on the same Earth, it's redundant. There's no way to have her on the main Earth without either changing her origin to be a non-Kryptonian or by referencing the fact that she's from Earth-2. In which case, you might as well just bring the Multiverse back and utilize it.

[Agent Z]

How much of her being a better character these days has anything to do with her origin tweaks, which often always bring a character down because they are distracting nonsense?
Citation for her being created because Supergirl was boring?

Karen was created to be the Earth-2 equivalent of Kara. She is literally Kara Zor-L, daughter of Zor-L. Its like having Kal-El and Kal-L on the same Earth, it's redundant. There's no way to have her on the main Earth without either changing her origin to be a non-Kryptonian or by referencing the fact that she's from Earth-2. In which case, you might as well just bring the Multiverse back and utilize it.

Not that I agree on Karen being the better character but her origin hasn't been tweaked nearly as often as you think. In fact, I think Kara's origin has been altered more than hers. And you wouldn't have to bring it up all the time anyway.

[SiegePerilous02]

Not that I agree on Karen being the better character but her origin hasn't been tweaked nearly as often as you think. In fact, I think Kara's origin has been altered more than hers. And you wouldn't have to bring it up all the time anyway.

Even doing it once is too much when it was perfectly fine and easy to understand as it was. Kara having it done more often doesn't mean it's ok to do it for Karen, it shouldn't be done to either of them.

You don't have to bring it up in-universe all the time, but it can still cause confusion out of universe. Like if you are tracking down older comics to read the historical first versions of the characters, or even just reading their biographies on Wikipedia, it gets needlessly confusing. Beyond a sliding timescale, not much else is needed. Anything beyond that is just too much moving parts and bad writing/world building, IMO.

[Frontier]

Plenty of room for them in stories set in the past, or time travel related mumbo jumbo.

But I just can't imagine a team without Jay Garrick running alongside them, Alan Scott flying overhead, or Ted Grant teaching some life lessons that the next generation will need to learn.

The JLA and the JSA are just millstones around each other's necks when they are on the same Earth.

The League is a millstone around every team's neck whether they're on the same Earth or not.

It comes from how much DC has pushed them as the top dogs of the universe. Look at what it's done to the Titans.

[achilles]

How much of her being a better character these days has anything to do with her origin tweaks, which often always bring a character down because they are distracting nonsense?
Citation for her being created because Supergirl was boring?

Karen was created to be the Earth-2 equivalent of Kara. She is literally Kara Zor-L, daughter of Zor-L. Its like having Kal-El and Kal-L on the same Earth, it's redundant. There's no way to have her on the main Earth without either changing her origin to be a non-Kryptonian or by referencing the fact that she's from Earth-2. In which case, you might as well just bring the Multiverse back and utilize it.

Yes, she is literally the same person...with a few tweaks, and, IMO historically, that's been a problem for her, at least with DC. So change that one detail, and that's sorted. But honestly, to make that argument in the context of how many Flashes, how many GLs, how many Robins? It just isn't as persuasive as it might have been. And why make Karen a non-Kryptonian? Just change her name slightly, still making her an "El/L". Work to distinguish her from Supergirl.

[SiegePerilous02]

The League is a millstone around every team's neck whether they're on the same Earth or not.

It comes from how much DC has pushed them as the top dogs of the universe. Look at what it's done to the Titans.

The JSA are the cross Earth equivalent. They basically ARE the JLA of their Earth, there is no JLA to upstage them. So from in-universe, there would be nothing to be concerned about. And in historically published comics, it worked fine that way. Meanwhile, these days the JSA is a niche property that is going to be ignored by management no matter what if they don't have a direction in mind, so putting them back on Earth-2 doesn't change anything.

Other niche teams like the Doom Patrol and the Metal Men don't get hurt by the JLA's presence. It's basically only the Titans, and their problems are borne from Wolfman getting writer's block and nobody knowing what to do with them afterward. They have plenty of problems of their own before we even get to how the JLA impacts them. And it's not like the JLA weren't treated as a bigger deal than them even within the pages of NTT.

Yes, she is literally the same person...with a few tweaks, and, IMO historically, that's been a problem for her, at least with DC. So change that one detail, and that's sorted. But honestly, to make that argument in the context of how many Flashes, how many GLs, how many Robins? It just isn't as persuasive as it might have been. And why make Karen a non-Kryptonian? Just change her name slightly, still making her an "El/L". Work to distinguish her from Supergirl.

Actually all those can have persuasive arguments against them as well depending on preference (I'm not a fan of Jay and Barry being on the same Earth, Alan has nothing to do with the GLC, and I hate too many Robins). basically, all these characters worked fine on Earth-2 and shoehorning them onto the main Earth has had a domino effect that impacts other things due to shoehorning them into a space that wasn't designed for them.

[Tzigone]

Actually all those can have persuasive arguments against them as well depending on preference (I'm not a fan of Jay and Barry being on the same Earth, Alan has nothing to do with the GLC, and I hate too many Robins). basically, all these characters worked fine on Earth-2 and shoehorning them onto the main Earth has had a domino effect that impacts other things due to shoehorning them into a space that wasn't designed for them.

I agree. Especially on Barry and Jay. Not going to derail thread with Robins talk. But putting Jay on the same earth as Barry really changes the entire tone of his decision to become the Flash, as I've said previously.

[SiegePerilous02]

I agree. Especially on Barry and Jay. Not going to derail thread with Robins talk. But putting Jay on the same earth as Barry really changes the entire tone of his decision to become the Flash, as I've said previously.

Their first meeting is also historically the first appearance of the Multiverse. So Barry meets his comic book idol and a huge part of the lore is established.

Making it so that Jay is the retired Flash from across the street is significantly less epic. And a classic issue is retconned. It's historical significance becomes meaningless within the lore itself.

[Tzigone]

Their first meeting is also historically the first appearance of the Multiverse. So Barry meets his comic book idol and a huge part of the lore is established.

Making it so that Jay is the retired Flash from across the street is significantly less epic. And a classic issue is retconned. It's historical significance becomes meaningless within the lore itself.

Also, Barry is intentionally taking the moniker of a real person without permission or blessing. It makes him seem more like a poser or thief. Versus Barry who took his name from a (as far as he knew) fictional character who did heroic deeds, as Barry wished to with his power.

I have to admit, I've never been that interested in Earth 2 as a separate entity (versus golden age history of older characters) and it's only real import to me is giving us bronze-age-Dinah. I acknowledge it ushered in an important aspect of pre-COIE continuity, but them meeting doesn't really matter to me. I'd have been fine sticking with the original Barry-reading-a-comic-book-shoutout version.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

But in reality Superman and Batman (and Wonder Woman) were part of that generation that pioneered the concept of a hero. Both in universe (until COIE) and more importantly out of universe, the JSA don't exist without Superman coming first. All of this came about as a direct response to the success of Action Comics #1. So it always reads as false because we can look at the historical comics and see with ease that that's not how it played out.

The problem with that argument is that the most iconic versions of Superman and Batman now have them starting with the JLA not with the JSA. However, the JSA characters are still iconic in their own right and have large fanbases. Shunting them off to a separate Earth would likely mean that we'd rarely, if ever, see them. What, would they just pop up for a yearly adventure with the JLA and then disappear again like in the Pre-Crisis days? Or would it be just like the New 52, where they're in one title that will eventually be cancelled? Even then it wasn't officially them, but younger, less popular versions.

If my years of following comics have taught me anything, its that no matter how popular an alt-universe take on a character is, people won't necessarily invest in something in the long-term if its not part of the "main universe continuity." That's why Marvel folded Miles into the main Marvel U.

Plus, it would create continuity nightmares for characters with a history on both the JSA and JLA.

But, more importantly, I just think at this point, the JSA characters are just too ingrained into the history of the DCU at this point. Jay is a mentor to the whole Flash family. Dr. Fate is the premier sorcerer in the DCU. Hawkman has extensive history as a Leaguer.

[SiegePerilous02]

The problem with that argument is that the most iconic versions of Superman and Batman now have them starting with the JLA not with the JSA. However, the JSA characters are still iconic in their own right and have large fanbases. Shunting them off to a separate Earth would likely mean that we'd rarely, if ever, see them. What, would they just pop up for a yearly adventure with the JLA and then disappear again like in the Pre-Crisis days? Or would it be just like the New 52, where they're in one title that will eventually be cancelled? Even then it wasn't officially them, but younger, less popular versions.

If my years of following comics have taught me anything, its that no matter how popular an alt-universe take on a character is, people won't necessarily invest in something in the long-term if its not part of the "main universe continuity." That's why Marvel folded Miles into the main Marvel U.

Plus, it would create continuity nightmares for characters with a history on both the JSA and JLA.

But, more importantly, I just think at this point, characters like Jay Garrick and Alan Scott are just too ingrained into the history of the DCU at this point.

Yeah but the most iconic versions of Superman and Batman came into play while the Multiverse was a still a thing. So we had the main versions starting with the JLA with no heroes coming before them, and the Golden Age versions still existing on Earth-2 with the JSA.

It's not like we rarely saw the JSA pre-COIE. They had a couple ongoing titles, didn't they? I know Roy Thomas was pissed at the time his book was disrupted by COIE. They were doing better than they did immediately after COIE anyway. The main continuity investment is a real problem though, I agree. That's the issue with the main comics reading crowd being the more insular LCS regulars set in their ways, and clutter Earth has been largely set in stone by fans.

IDK, I think of DC's major properties (Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, GL, Aquaman, JLA and even the likes of Titans, the Legion, Shazam and Doom Patrol) and none of them would be phased that much by the JSA's absence. Not even GL since Alan doesn't have much to do with the Corps. Only the Flash would be impacted. Otherwise, they don't impact much outside of their own legacies and little corner. And it's not like DC hasn't proven they will shunt them aside even when they are on prime Earth anyway.

[Frontier]

The JSA are the cross Earth equivalent. They basically ARE the JLA of their Earth, there is no JLA to upstage them. So from in-universe, there would be nothing to be concerned about. And in historically published comics, it worked fine that way. Meanwhile, these days the JSA is a niche property that is going to be ignored by management no matter what if they don't have a direction in mind, so putting them back on Earth-2 doesn't change anything.

Other niche teams like the Doom Patrol and the Metal Men don't get hurt by the JLA's presence. It's basically only the Titans, and their problems are borne from Wolfman getting writer's block and nobody knowing what to do with them afterward. They have plenty of problems of their own before we even get to how the JLA impacts them. And it's not like the JLA weren't treated as a bigger deal than them even within the pages of NTT.

Yeah, but they're on Earth-2. So in terms of even cosmic placement they're secondary to the Justice League in terms of importance and will probably never be on equal footing with the League even if they are on another Earth because they don't have Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman on the team (or at least the versions people really care about).

I'm not saying that because I support that view, but it is what it is now.

The JSA is a niche property because DC management has continually ignored or done nothing with it. The Doom Patrol and Metal Men don't have an issue because no one is going to try to spin them as a marquee team on par with the Justice League.

The JSA were the main heroes of their own book even on Post-Crisis and on the same Earth as the Justice League, so it's not like being on a separate Earth makes all that much of a difference if you actually give them a book.

Actually all those can have persuasive arguments against them as well depending on preference (I'm not a fan of Jay and Barry being on the same Earth, Alan has nothing to do with the GLC, and I hate too many Robins). basically, all these characters worked fine on Earth-2 and shoehorning them onto the main Earth has had a domino effect that impacts other things due to shoehorning them into a space that wasn't designed for them.

It doesn't mean it can't fit. I think Jay works well as the grandpa of the Flash Family and I like it when Hal acknowledges Alan.

IDK, I think of DC's major properties (Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, GL, Aquaman, JLA and even the likes of Titans, the Legion, Shazam and Doom Patrol) and none of them would be phased that much by the JSA's absence. Not even GL since Alan doesn't have much to do with the Corps. Only the Flash would be impacted. Otherwise, they don't impact much outside of their own legacies and little corner. And it's not like DC hasn't proven they will shunt them aside even when they are on prime Earth anyway.

That doesn't mean their presence isn't additive in some ways. DC could probably condense their titles or characters immensely and keep chugging along (heck, they've done it before) but it wouldn't necessarily feel complete.

Also, Barry is intentionally taking the moniker of a real person without permission or blessing. It makes him seem more like a poser or thief. Versus Barry who took his name from a (as far as he knew) fictional character who did heroic deeds, as Barry wished to with his power.

That's a really negative way of viewing a guy taking on the moniker of a retired hero in order to honor him and maintain a legacy.

I mean, you capture Barry's fanboy nature and love of heroes either way so it doesn't seem like much of a difference to me.

[Agent Z]

And it's not like DC hasn't proven they will shunt them aside even when they are on prime Earth anyway.

There's a far greater chance of that happening if they're on a separate Earth.

Even doing it once is too much when it was perfectly fine and easy to understand as it was.

For the most part, it's still the same now. The only difference is she's now a refugee from a destroyed universe as well. There are characters with far more complicated backstories that don't get half as many complaints.

You don't have to bring it up in-universe all the time, but it can still cause confusion out of universe.

I really think you are overestimating how confusing this can be. I had little to no problems understanding Karen's backstory when I was introduced to her and the wikipedia page is pretty easy to follow.

[achilles]

The problem with that argument is that the most iconic versions of Superman and Batman now have them starting with the JLA not with the JSA. However, the JSA characters are still iconic in their own right and have large fanbases. Shunting them off to a separate Earth would likely mean that we'd rarely, if ever, see them. What, would they just pop up for a yearly adventure with the JLA and then disappear again like in the Pre-Crisis days? Or would it be just like the New 52, where they're in one title that will eventually be cancelled? Even then it wasn't officially them, but younger, less popular versions.

If my years of following comics have taught me anything, its that no matter how popular an alt-universe take on a character is, people won't necessarily invest in something in the long-term if its not part of the "main universe continuity." That's why Marvel folded Miles into the main Marvel U.

Plus, it would create continuity nightmares for characters with a history on both the JSA and JLA.

But, more importantly, I just think at this point, the JSA characters are just too ingrained into the history of the DCU at this point. Jay is a mentor to the whole Flash family. Dr. Fate is the premier sorcerer in the DCU. Hawkman has extensive history as a Leaguer.

This pretty much covers it for me.