Page 7 of 7 FirstFirst ... 34567
Results 91 to 97 of 97
  1. #91
    Incredible Member abulafia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Posts
    598

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    One additional factor that complicates the life of queer characters in fiction is that most readers (and viewers) haven't been taught to see the markers for queer romance. For some, they have been taught to unsee it.

    The result is that below a certain level such interactions are invisible, and can be easily dismissed as just friends or wholly ignored. In order to break through that level of obliviousness, the queer romance has to be blatant in a way that straight romances don't have to be. This opens it up for criticism of being forced or coming out of nowhere.

    It's the same bind that a lot of minority representation has to deal with. If it can possibly be ignored or downplayed, it will be. And if it can't be ignored or downplayed, it's deemed forced upon the narrative, when the "white moderate" (as Martin Luther King aptly named him) confusedly looks upon the people being angry at him for not seeing them for to long.

    And then we have the trouble that the corporate suits usually are more ready to hear the bigots than any oppressed group. Second-hand (or passive) homophobia is most certainly a thing.
    it is a narrow lane to walk though. you might reverse it and say that people see what they want to see. remember the countless efforts on the old board to read logan as gay. to me that is more fan-fiction, as there is rarely any clear hints like between achilles and patrokles.

    there a few (big) movie that even dared try to touch the subject. american psycho comes to mind for example, when that co-worker thought bale“s char was attracted to him. of course it is ambiguous on psychological level.

    ofc awesome as it is, sopranos challenged the subject several times
    Last edited by abulafia; 02-18-2020 at 04:23 PM.
    I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.

  2. #92
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Posts
    7,039

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran_Frost View Post
    No-one is saying it is...

    Missing the point, mate.

    I think you're seriously missing the point. The issue is not Hawkeye's family! The issues are a) it's not plot relevant, b) it came out with no development, c) everyone's okay with that. YOU are okay with that. And yet the second anyone mentions LGBT+ characters all we hear from the peanut gallery is "but is it really plot relevant?" or "it has to be organic, if it's going to be done". It's hypocritical. It's a double standard. Period. THAT is why Hawkeye's family is the Holy Grail of proof about how this works, and how clear the double standard is... because EVERYONE'S OKAY with Hawkeye's family.

    Valkyrie, Loki, Korg... it's not like the MCU didn't have LGBT+ characters in them, it's just they never said they were LGBT+. But random American soldier pings his sexuality and it's TOTALLY fine.

    I really do mean this constructively... ask yourself this: "if I'm using the very same arguements bigots use (those were your words, not mine)... should maybe I take a second and think about that?"
    When you're not in the demographic, it can be hard to wrap your head around about what representation means to that demographic. I mean, you can intellectually know, but it's not the mindset you're from. As a straight white guy, I'm (over)represented in media as is, so I don't really have the background where seeing someone who looks like me or has similar life experiences is a rare thing. While I do have my fair share of stuff I like that does factor in representation as major part or the main point of the media, I do have to admit that it's more from enjoying the story and characters for what they are. (I do have a more analytical mindset and find the craftsmanship of fiction interesting. Hence, why I like asking questions if stuff works on a "nuts and bolts" level. Maybe all that isn't how I should be seeing things, but there it is.)

    Not sure if any of that makes any sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran_Frost View Post
    Not on film they haven't, and that's where it counts (comics and books aren't the same thing).
    I see your point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran_Frost View Post
    Harry Potter is the same (in books too actually, hilariously considering JK Rowling is "an ally" -- which she totally isn't, by the way -- side note).
    Yeah, never found Rowling's proclaiming Dumbledore gay to ring true (esp. when subsequent projects went out of their way to obscure that fact when it would be important to know). (Frankly, despite not being a Potter fan, I've kinda found her excessive use of "word of God" to add details without actually creating any new content annoying, at best.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran_Frost View Post
    Star Trek was until very recently. MCU too.
    Some of the DS9 mirror universe episodes did have such characters, but nothing very flattering or complimentary (and, as I recall, it kinda started from something that wasn't intended to be a LGBT element that took on a life of its own).


    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran_Frost View Post
    a) if you are attracted to a woman not knowing it's your sister, then find out it's your sister and THEN kiss her passionately; the excuse "but when I first felt that attraction I didn't know" wouldn't work, would it? b) Niece is still icky! COME ON! Can you not see that? It's pretty incestuous. They needed to put a pin through it ASAP; the moment he found out that should have been it over. The fact he goes back to Peggy makes it ten times worse.
    Okay?

    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    One additional factor that complicates the life of queer characters in fiction is that most readers (and viewers) haven't been taught to see the markers for queer romance. For some, they have been taught to unsee it.

    The result is that below a certain level such interactions are invisible, and can be easily dismissed as just friends or wholly ignored. In order to break through that level of obliviousness, the queer romance has to be blatant in a way that straight romances don't have to be. This opens it up for criticism of being forced or coming out of nowhere.
    Can recall a couple of situations where I've seen people argue that an apparent LGBT couple were "just friends" or something when had it been a straight couple, I don't think you'd be getting that much (although, to be fair, one was a video game where it was partially up to the player if they took that route and it was a pretty popular "ship" in any event among those who played it).
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

  3. #93
    CBR's Good Fairy Kieran_Frost's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Bristol, UK
    Posts
    7,887

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Midvillian1322 View Post
    There is defiently and double standard since they do that for Straight characters all the time and no one complains unless it's just blatantly bad(Hulk/Natasha). I think its just a matter of time before seeing LGBTQ characters will become normalized, hopefully sooner rather then later...
    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    Frost's point is why is it okay for Hawkeye to have his wife and kids mentioned and no one goes NUTS but doing the same for a LGBTQ person has the pitch forks out.
    What he is asking is if there is LGBTQ folks in this-lets get onscreen confirmation. Because I am going to tell what will happen-it might get verbally said and then DUBBED over for other places. Like we saw with Sailor Moon-Neptune & Uranus say HI. So does Zeolite. Along with all those flat chested Yellow Rangers in Power Rangers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    Anyway, I'm with Kieran on this topic.
    Straight relationships don't have to justify their existence and really neither should gay characters. Granted, Eternals having a gay couple could hurt it in some foreign markets like Russia and China but the MCU is actually due for LGBT characters at this point.


    Thank-you all. It means a lot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    I genuinely don't understand how you can watch Ragnarok and come away with this.
    The main character- white
    The main villain- white
    The supporting protagonist- white
    The other superhero movie in the movie (the Hulk)- white
    The only prominent person of color in that movie was Valkyrie. Heimdall did next to nothing in the movie besides guide the Asgardians to a starship.
    Suggesting the movie demeaned the white characters isn't grounded in any reality whatsoever.
    By extension of this logic, Hulk or Thor or Loki shining is demeaning to minority characters. This doesn't make any sense....
    100% all of this!

    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    When you're not in the demographic, it can be hard to wrap your head around about what representation means to that demographic. I mean, you can intellectually know, but it's not the mindset you're from. As a straight white guy, I'm (over)represented in media as is, so I don't really have the background where seeing someone who looks like me or has similar life experiences is a rare thing. While I do have my fair share of stuff I like that does factor in representation as major part or the main point of the media, I do have to admit that it's more from enjoying the story and characters for what they are. (I do have a more analytical mindset and find the craftsmanship of fiction interesting. Hence, why I like asking questions if stuff works on a "nuts and bolts" level. Maybe all that isn't how I should be seeing things, but there it is.)

    Not sure if any of that makes any sense.
    I get it. I think you're still on a journey to learn and discover the complexities of these, but it's important to acknowledge I appreciate you're trying to learn. Trying to grow. If more people were like that, we'd all be better off. So keep on it. And we're all in the same boat, we're all learning, none of us know everything or understand everything. What matters is we're open to trying to learn. So kudos. x

    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Yeah, never found Rowling's proclaiming Dumbledore gay to ring true (esp. when subsequent projects went out of their way to obscure that fact when it would be important to know). (Frankly, despite not being a Potter fan, I've kinda found her excessive use of "word of God" to add details without actually creating any new content annoying, at best.)
    Either way it's problematic.
    It's problematic if she always intended him to be gay, yet picked THE ONLY GAY to be the one romance she didn't spell out.
    It's problematic if it's simply not true, and she retroactively added it
    It's problematic that even after it being explained to her why having the only gay person in your universe not be cannon, she writes two plays, and three screenplays in that same universe and doesn't correct this issue.
    And finally... something recently was problematic, I think it was to do with an anti-trans statement she made??? I long ago checked out from giving a damn about JK Rowling's "ally-ship" so didn't pay attention to the story.

    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Some of the DS9 mirror universe episodes did have such characters, but nothing very flattering or complimentary (and, as I recall, it kinda started from something that wasn't intended to be a LGBT element that took on a life of its own).
    But that was uncomfortable because it wasn't the same universe. Specifically wasn't. Almost emphasising how LGBT+ people don't exist in the "good" universe.
    "We are Shakespeare. We are Michelangelo. We are Tchaikovsky. We are Turing. We are Mercury. We are Wilde. We are Lincoln, Lorca, Leonardo da Vinci. We are Alexander the Great. We are Fredrick the Great. We are Rustin. We are Addams. We are Marsha! Marsha Marsha Marsha! We so generous, we DeGeneres. We are Ziggy Stardust hooked to the silver screen. Controversially we are Malcolm X. We are Plato. We are Aristotle. We are RuPaul, god dammit! And yes, we are Woolf."

  4. #94
    Incredible Member abulafia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Posts
    598

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    I genuinely don't understand how you can watch Ragnarok and come away with this.

    The main character- white
    The main villain- white
    The supporting protagonist- white
    The other superhero movie in the movie (the Hulk)- white

    The only prominent person of color in that movie was Valkyrie. Heimdall did next to nothing in the movie besides guide the Asgardians to a starship.

    Suggesting the movie demeaned the white characters isn't grounded in any reality whatsoever.

    By extension of this logic, Hulk or Thor or Loki shining is demeaning to minority characters. This doesn't make any sense....
    we have some stuff going on her.
    it is not just POC issue and i did not want to derail the thread.
    mods might move it cause it belongs to marvel/thor discussion.

    hela was superficially imperssiv. great actress, great costume design, etc.
    but then we act as if the asgardians have a hidden/secret history? oh, she was the first born. as if that ever mattered. zeus was the youngest among his siblings for example.
    so we are expected to believe, that during the thousands of years of asgardian reign, everyone lied to thor?
    he did not know about this sister?
    and then, in a vulgar display of power, she crushes his incarnation of power? thor in the mythology is not the god of war and battle, he is the protector of family.

    even if mythology and marvel differ, there are some qualities that remain. thor is the protector of midgard and its people.
    but then the lady takes that all away effortlessly.

    then we have the total and easy destruction of asgard and its people. hela is a joke character. boom, she is there, she goes in and destroys everything. there are no stakes!
    i have to state that with mocking the white characters, i meant the army of asgard and fandrall and volstagg. and to a degree the scourge.
    the scourge had his epic scene from one of the best thor runs, but he still is just a joke. it lacks the respect for the source material.

    so we have fandrall and volstagg insta killed. those legendary companions of thor. they are just snuffed. what is that? to me that is just a hired gun making fun of established characters.
    the mockery is put to another level when hogun does his last man standing.
    i like hogun, but i think it was fundamentally wrong. they are the WARRIORS THREE. let them have their last stand together. but no, hogun is the only one that even shows a slight of a challenge to hela, which would have been okay if the other asgardians would not have been offed like clowns.

    it is an epic storyline, but in my humble opinion, marveldisney failed it the same as x-men failed the phoenix-saga.
    asgards fall is not epic. or do you think so? was that what you expect of an acient raceĀ“s last stand?

    so everybody dies, but the other token POC in asgard organizes the defiance to hela. frag you, norsemen.

    to me it is a reversed tarzan. there you have white saviour to guide the poor natives, it is both imbalanced storytelling
    I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.

  5. #95
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Posts
    7,039

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran_Frost View Post
    Either way it's problematic.
    It's problematic if she always intended him to be gay, yet picked THE ONLY GAY to be the one romance she didn't spell out.
    It's problematic if it's simply not true, and she retroactively added it
    It's problematic that even after it being explained to her why having the only gay person in your universe not be cannon, she writes two plays, and three screenplays in that same universe and doesn't correct this issue.
    And finally... something recently was problematic, I think it was to do with an anti-trans statement she made??? I long ago checked out from giving a damn about JK Rowling's "ally-ship" so didn't pay attention to the story.
    Never really kept on top if it, either, although I have gathered that a lot of her Potter work has been getting reevaluated in light of how little representation it actually has/stuff that hasn't aged well at all or was never a good idea (e.g. werewolves representing AIDs, an Asian woman becoming the animal pet of a white Hitler type, etc.) vs. the lip service Rowling has been paying to valuing that sort of thing. Mileage may vary if her work still has value if divorced from her herself and stuff she's said/done since.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran_Frost View Post
    But that was uncomfortable because it wasn't the same universe. Specifically wasn't. Almost emphasising how LGBT+ people don't exist in the "good" universe.
    Never thought of that, more was thinking about how all the characters from those shows were depicted as evil, or at least amoral. Was kinda played off as jokes or very unflattering scenarios, not for anything good. While I can see the case being made for having LGBT characters that have their flaws and all that, there's a big difference between complexity/depth and a negative portrayal period. (Have wondered sometimes if depicting the alt-version of DS9 character Major Kira as bisexual meant that mainstream Kira was also bisexual. While it has been established that characters in the Trek multiverse can have different orientations in different universes -- e.g. how regular and mirror Sulu were depicted as straight while the Kelvin one was gay -- and regular Kira was not shown taking interest in women, it wouldn't be out of the question, either.)
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

  6. #96
    King of Wakanda Midvillian1322's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Posts
    8,312

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by abulafia View Post
    we have some stuff going on her.
    it is not just POC issue and i did not want to derail the thread.
    mods might move it cause it belongs to marvel/thor discussion.

    hela was superficially imperssiv. great actress, great costume design, etc.
    but then we act as if the asgardians have a hidden/secret history? oh, she was the first born. as if that ever mattered. zeus was the youngest among his siblings for example.
    so we are expected to believe, that during the thousands of years of asgardian reign, everyone lied to thor?
    he did not know about this sister?
    and then, in a vulgar display of power, she crushes his incarnation of power? thor in the mythology is not the god of war and battle, he is the protector of family.

    even if mythology and marvel differ, there are some qualities that remain. thor is the protector of midgard and its people.
    but then the lady takes that all away effortlessly.

    then we have the total and easy destruction of asgard and its people. hela is a joke character. boom, she is there, she goes in and destroys everything. there are no stakes!
    i have to state that with mocking the white characters, i meant the army of asgard and fandrall and volstagg. and to a degree the scourge.
    the scourge had his epic scene from one of the best thor runs, but he still is just a joke. it lacks the respect for the source material.

    so we have fandrall and volstagg insta killed. those legendary companions of thor. they are just snuffed. what is that? to me that is just a hired gun making fun of established characters.
    the mockery is put to another level when hogun does his last man standing.
    i like hogun, but i think it was fundamentally wrong. they are the WARRIORS THREE. let them have their last stand together. but no, hogun is the only one that even shows a slight of a challenge to hela, which would have been okay if the other asgardians would not have been offed like clowns.

    it is an epic storyline, but in my humble opinion, marveldisney failed it the same as x-men failed the phoenix-saga.
    asgards fall is not epic. or do you think so? was that what you expect of an acient raceĀ“s last stand?

    so everybody dies, but the other token POC in asgard organizes the defiance to hela. frag you, norsemen.

    to me it is a reversed tarzan. there you have white saviour to guide the poor natives, it is both imbalanced storytelling
    I think you might be projecting a bit. Waititi trimmed the fat and killed off characters who you can barely call characters in those films. Heimdall wasnt saved becuase he was black he was saved because they needed him for Infinity war, and then promptly killed him off aswell. You can not like the movie for the reasons u listed but you have failed to convince me that this movie has some kinda anti white agenda. Taika Waititi's mom who inspired him to make Jojo rabbit is also white AF.

  7. #97
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    With the Orishas
    Posts
    6,197

    Default

    we have some stuff going on her.
    it is not just POC issue and i did not want to derail the thread.
    mods might move it cause it belongs to marvel/thor discussion.

    hela was superficially imperssiv. great actress, great costume design, etc.
    but then we act as if the asgardians have a hidden/secret history? oh, she was the first born. as if that ever mattered. zeus was the youngest among his siblings for example.
    so we are expected to believe, that during the thousands of years of asgardian reign, everyone lied to thor?
    he did not know about this sister?
    and then, in a vulgar display of power, she crushes his incarnation of power? thor in the mythology is not the god of war and battle, he is the protector of family.

    even if mythology and marvel differ, there are some qualities that remain. thor is the protector of midgard and its people.
    but then the lady takes that all away effortlessly.

    then we have the total and easy destruction of asgard and its people. hela is a joke character. boom, she is there, she goes in and destroys everything. there are no stakes!
    i have to state that with mocking the white characters, i meant the army of asgard and fandrall and volstagg. and to a degree the scourge.
    the scourge had his epic scene from one of the best thor runs, but he still is just a joke. it lacks the respect for the source material.

    so we have fandrall and volstagg insta killed. those legendary companions of thor. they are just snuffed. what is that? to me that is just a hired gun making fun of established characters.
    the mockery is put to another level when hogun does his last man standing.
    i like hogun, but i think it was fundamentally wrong. they are the WARRIORS THREE. let them have their last stand together. but no, hogun is the only one that even shows a slight of a challenge to hela, which would have been okay if the other asgardians would not have been offed like clowns.

    it is an epic storyline, but in my humble opinion, marveldisney failed it the same as x-men failed the phoenix-saga.
    asgards fall is not epic. or do you think so? was that what you expect of an acient raceĀ“s last stand?

    so everybody dies, but the other token POC in asgard organizes the defiance to hela. frag you, norsemen.

    to me it is a reversed tarzan. there you have white saviour to guide the poor natives, it is both imbalanced storytelling
    Most of this criticism has to do with the plot and story and not one race/gender being depicted as good or bad. A reasonable argument could be made (and to some extent I agree with) that the Warriors 3 shouldn't have been killed the way they were, they've been part of Thor's stories for a long time and to a large extent deserve better.

    Hela is a character is from the comics, granted they changed somethings in the movie but Hela is a very powerful character in the source material (if i remember correctly, she was the person that turned Thor's bones brittle for a long time). It has zero to do with her gender. She might not be as "physically" powerful in the movies but the Thor movies up to Ragnarok never even had a truly menacing villain, so having someone that could physically take Thor out was a breath of fresh air.

    Heimdall's role in the movie was minuscule and is a far, far,far, far cry from the "white savior" trope you're referring to. I don't think the character had more than 5 minutes of screen time in the entire movie. And even if he did, hasn't it occurred to you its because it's Idris Elba playing role and considering his status would likely have been given something to do in the movie?

    The people that had all the awesome scenes in the movie were all white people and frankly, Ragnarok is one of Marvel's "whitest" movies in terms of casting. The criticism of the movie being anti-white is pretty off, it's like people complaining that some characters in "My Hero Academia" have the same birth dates as war criminals and therefore the work is problematic, that's severe projection.
    Last edited by Username taken; 02-21-2020 at 12:34 AM.
    "Obviously not all conservatives are racists/bigots but all racists/bigots claim to be conservative"- Unknown

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •