Jean Grey: Phoenix/Marvel Girl Appreciation 2020

[otipep_90]

Keep in mind pls everyone, ask I ask the questions I ask... is to help make the future be something EVERYONE would be satisfied with. That's all

So pls don't flame me ^_^||

Just being blunt. Don’t mean any harm.

[GMikey]

Just being blunt. Don’t mean any harm.

Hey its cool

I'm asking cuz of... something said that, I needed validation on, that's all.

[Wiccan]

People keep saying the Phoenix was literally supposed to be Jean in the sense that it's just her power, like in the Fox movies, but I never feltlike that idea has been fully realized tbh. It has always come off as something separate that Jean has been merged with, and it is mentioned at such in DPS at least.

I already wrote my idea of how they could fix the Phoenix/Jean connection in current Marvel, which would be basically that the Phoenix has created the cavewoman Phoenix as a perfect host and that the "gift" of being a "true Phoenix" is passed on through generations, sometimes skipping some, and Jean is the current true Phoenix with Rachel and Hope following after her.

That probably doesn't fit with what you're collecting info/opinions for, though.

[GMikey]

People keep saying the Phoenix was literally supposed to be Jean in the sense that it's just her power, like in the Fox movies, but I never feltlike that idea has been fully realized tbh. It has always come off as something separate that Jean has been merged with, and it is mentioned at such in DPS at least.

I already wrote my idea of how they could fix the Phoenix/Jean connection in current Marvel, which would be basically that the Phoenix has created the cavewoman Phoenix as a perfect host and that the "gift" of being a "true Phoenix" is passed on through generations, sometimes skipping some, and Jean is the current true Phoenix with Rachel and Hope following after her.

That probably doesn't fit with what you're collecting info/opinions for, though.

Well... my question was not meant for me to discuss anything at all with anyone... just learn an opinion that may or may not be true, and validate what she said to everyone about X-Fans (and so far, she's correct, and I see why... her decisions were made).

However... I will say this to you only; the Phoenix seems to be at least one of the most divisive topics to discuss with Marvel fans. I've discussed all sorts of M topics elsewhere and everyone got along... until the Phoenix is brought up.

Yes, I am asking this, not for myself as it is in juncture of what a mass collective of fans are doing. And I feel... this will eventually invade CANON because its serious creativity behind this. So I care, and I am a bit frustrated being in my position. The Phoenix has been the most difficult topic for me to discuss as, one group LOVE it, and the other... not too much to be kind. Also to take into acct, there are other X-Men that fans felt have been slighted by writers, and so THESE fans (and its a hell lot of them) are very vocal to bring something else center stage. I know this doesn't mean anything to onlookers, but I'm looking at the bigger picture.

I mean... I'd honestly like to know more of what your story is about, as certain elements... are interesting to say the least. I've not had much luck when it came to, getting ideas for reshaping the Phoenix's narrative (with the exception of two awesome members here). Rest assured, to satisfy the polarizing parties, Jean Grey remains as Phoenix, and honestly I do like this explanation better than MU's. It just feels more practical and realistic... However, "there's another ingredient" in this mix... Something new is introduced for the sake of the other party. I'm very impressed, and love this creativity, and how it adds this brand new dimension to the Phoenix's narrative, other heroes, it adds something new for Jean/Phoenix's plot, yet give us something totally new in its own right, and brings something/someone else center stage, and with new experiences to be had.

Just as an example of the difficulty in the fandom, at the end (of the major saga bridging many heroes together), Jean Grey lives and uses Phoenix to help many pick up the pieces, and further "repair" the PF itself. And, that made (some) Jean/Phoenix fans very angry, and felt that she was "robbed" of a narrative that should have been hers... which doesn't make sense. Like... someone is allowing Jean and Scott to NOT have a rotten ending, and take lead for many mutants. The plot would now allow her if anything to shine, with something new to do. I mean... part of me knows the answer, but still... to me, this is GOOD development for Jean's character.

Funny I'm talking to someone about Phoenix with Wiccan as their user/avatar; said group have plans to have Wiccan interact with "The Phoenix" alongside next gen heroes, that include Rachel Summers/Phoenix, a reincarnation of Quire/Omega, Laura Kinney, Olivier Lebeau and several others

[WallStreeter]

Exactly! So the Phoenix Force shows up to have a contest of champions for it’s new host and Jean is like whatever...

That is not heroic! She can’t just not get involved knowing it’s going to most likely corrupt the new host, as Marvel has very shittingly established will always happen. Really what are the motives behind the PF’s anyway? Arron’s Avengers run has been so incestuous...uhh. Last issue Moon Knight had the PF, Blade was the Sorcerer Supreme, She-hulk was the Ironfist, and a baby was the Starbrand! Lol everything is a power-up. What a hot mess!

I’m not even going to buy that junk. Don’t pay fir stupidity. It’s horrible fan fiction. If sakes do down Marvel will Fire Aaron.

Aaron wants his favorite characters to get whatever titles he wants them to have, despite them being a part of other characters.

Strange is the sorcerer Supreme. Danny is Iron Fist. Jean is the true Phoenix. After this storyline all this garbage will get ignored.

[Zelena]

The Phoenix Force is a retcon! The Phoenix Saga was the story of Jean Grey becoming a WOMAN and leaving behind her MARVEL GIRL moniker! From the weakest X-men to the becoming the strongest despite of her gender and silver age female stereotypes that she was saddled with! This is what was established by Claremont and Cockrum. Everything since the destruction of the D’Bari star has been a dismantling of her iconography and persona as Phoenix. Look at where we are today with the character after 15 year publishing limbo. Marvel just won’t let Jean Grey be better.

In my opinion a reversal of Jean/Scott and making the PF an aimless cosmic abstract that keeps bouncing around from host to host, instead of originating from Jean’s vast psionic abilities, misses the mark of the original creators intent, which is a far superior story.

The Phoenix Force made Jean Grey more powerful and certainly the most powerful character of the team, but Marvel Girl was far from being a weak character…

The only problem I have with Marvel Girl is the silly name and the silly costume that has been created in a time when printing techniques weren’t what they are today hence this ugly green hue. So using it today is quite anachronistic for me.

[Su_Whisterfield]

What do you mean by that?

He’s 5’3”.
If he’s taller than Jean he’s standing on a box.
In water.
Hence a waterproof box.

[Gray Lensman]

He’s 5’3”.
If he’s taller than Jean he’s standing on a box.
In water.
Hence a waterproof box.

It's the Hugh Jackmam effect - he is tall and handsome, so Wolverine was changed to match.

[otipep_90]

The Phoenix Force made Jean Grey more powerful and certainly the most powerful character of the team, but Marvel Girl was far from being a weak character…

The only problem I have with Marvel Girl is the silly name and the silly costume that has been created in a time when printing techniques weren’t t what they are today hence this ugly green hue. So using it today is quite anachronistic for me.

You are right that Jean Grey wasn’t a weak character, but her power level were inconsistent, and she was undermined, making her the token female character in all the worst ways. This didn’t change until later creators in the 60s started improving the books. I read all of the original run, granted years ago, but when all the boys including Xavier had their origins explored, Jean got to show off how handy her tk was for homemaking. Marvel was limiting her character, it wasn’t until both the title and Jean Grey were revamped that it became a success.

Every since the DPFS Marvel has wanted to preserve Jean in her Marvel Girl persona because they won’t let her claim the Phoenix, this has been a problem for many creators throughout her publishing history. The editors continually limit the character when writer push to do new things with her. As for the reason behind the recent Marvel Girl nostalgia trip she is on (mini-dress and all) could be because they are building her up to be Phoenix again. But the idea that she has to earn it again is just backtracking from what Morrison’s run had established. The whole franchise gets revamped and Jean gets dismantled? Why? She is stuck in a loop where every few decades Marvel has to reestablish her role as Phoenix instead of moving forward with it.

I don’t see why she can’t be her best self in Down of X and everyone else can. That’s how I feel about the dress, it should have been used only in House of X for the space mission and after The Five resurrection she should have symbolically taken up the Phoenix name and costume again like she did during Seagle’s run and slowly built up her Phoenix Force connection like Morrison did in his.

[Su_Whisterfield]

It's the Hugh Jackmam effect - he is tall and handsome, so Wolverine was changed to match.

It’s so irritating when film canon trumps the source material. Comics canon should always take precedence.

[Thirteen]

There are other examples like how she reacted to Lang and Wolverine in the right-before-she-merges-with-Phoenix story. Also, Jean at times had a temper in the Phoenix/Dark Phoenix years. Jean displayed anger several times in the X-factor years. I've said it before but Jean came across more settled/mature in the 90's (though I've read before where some fans argued it wasn't shown/earned this maturity but I think you can say it came with life experience during the X-factor years). Jean kind of became the den-mother to the X-men, and a very empathic compassionate character so we don't always see the more fiery side..especially when she's not Phoenix (though Teen Jean certainly displayed a lot of personality, temper, and angst).

I love scans from the original X-men days.

Early X-Factor Jean would pop OFF with a telekinetic tantrum every now and again...

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

People keep saying the Phoenix was literally supposed to be Jean in the sense that it's just her power, like in the Fox movies, but I never feltlike that idea has been fully realized tbh. It has always come off as something separate that Jean has been merged with, and it is mentioned at such in DPS at least.

I already wrote my idea of how they could fix the Phoenix/Jean connection in current Marvel, which would be basically that the Phoenix has created the cavewoman Phoenix as a perfect host and that the "gift" of being a "true Phoenix" is passed on through generations, sometimes skipping some, and Jean is the current true Phoenix with Rachel and Hope following after her.

That probably doesn't fit with what you're collecting info/opinions for, though.

People keep saying that because the Force is a retcon.

Unfortunately, it's a retcon people keep ruining further every other year.

[darewithpeace]

lol

[Harpsikord]

Do y'all think she designed that now because she already knew what it looked like sub-consciously?

[Daedra]

Do y'all think she designed that now because she already knew what it looked like sub-consciously?

I get what you mean but at one point someone had to actually create the design, there must be an origin