Jean Grey: Phoenix/Marvel Girl Appreciation 2020

[Harpsikord]

Also DEAD.
Regardless of intentions for where that would lead, Jean was dead at the end of Morrison’s run.

Which is fair, I should mention that I meant before the events of Planet X when I said that.

And when it comes down to it, her character didn't need to be killed off in the first place and she certainly didn't need to be kept dead for so long... something that we're well aware was due to an editorial vendetta.

The point being that the only thing that needed to be rebooted about Jean's character was getting people's eyes on her and that's what Bendis did. Hickman had nothing to do with it. And then building off of that we had Cullen Bunn making people enjoy teen Jean and then Tom Taylor is the one that established adult Jean in the eyes of modern times. Not Hickman. Hickman didn't do anything for that.

And if you want to credit someone for bringing her back you have Mark Paniccia to thank for that. He's the one that finally made it happen.

[Grey]

Which is fair, I should mention that I meant before the events of Planet X when I said that.

And when it comes down to it, her character didn't need to be killed off in the first place and she certainly didn't need to be kept dead for so long... something that we're well aware was due to an editorial vendetta.

The point being that the only thing that needed to be rebooted about Jean's character was getting people's eyes on her and that's what Bendis did. Hickman had nothing to do with it. And then building off of that we had Cullen Bunn making people enjoy teen Jean and then Tom Taylor is the one that established adult Jean in the eyes of modern times. Not Hickman. Hickman didn't do anything for that.

And if you want to credit someone for bringing her back you have Mark Paniccia to thank for that. He's the one that finally made it happen.

Agreed

Whether people like his version or not, Bendis revitalized Jean’s character when she so desperately needed it.

[MechaJeanix]

Jean has been handled well in this new era but it just feels a bit uneven due to how Hickman handled her in the one issue of House of X. Hickman has used Jean fairly well since then even though in those other issues she hasn't done a whole lot and hasn't been the focus (other than the Giant Sized issue and the artist had a lot of input). I tend to dwell on what I do like and I love Percy's Jean. She is intelligent, confident, capable and she has skills that are useful for X-force.

My hope is that Jean remains in X-force. Maybe Percy will have Beast and Jean make up. Maybe Jean's role will be holding Hank accountable. The team does need a strong moral compass, and Jean would fit that role better than Sage or Colossus imo.

One of the things I loved about X-men Red was Jean as a leader and that she was minus both Scott and Logan. Jean is probably better without those two, but the character is still doing well and she's linked to both at the present. There were a lot of things to appreciate about the X-men Red era and it is sad for us Jean fans that it didn't continue a little longer (would have been nice to have more than one story since the whole run was just one big story). Between X-men Red and the Teen Jean stuff we got spoiled having Jean in a big starring role in the X-books. She still has a good role right now but the focus is on so many characters.

[WallStreeter]

Which is fair, I should mention that I meant before the events of Planet X when I said that.

And when it comes down to it, her character didn't need to be killed off in the first place and she certainly didn't need to be kept dead for so long... something that we're well aware was due to an editorial vendetta.

The point being that the only thing that needed to be rebooted about Jean's character was getting people's eyes on her and that's what Bendis did. Hickman had nothing to do with it. And then building off of that we had Cullen Bunn making people enjoy teen Jean and then Tom Taylor is the one that established adult Jean in the eyes of modern times. Not Hickman. Hickman didn't do anything for that.

And if you want to credit someone for bringing her back you have Mark Paniccia to thank for that. He's the one that finally made it happen.

Morrison and Quesada were off the mind Jean should have remained dead after the original Dark Phoenix saga.

It’s in now Jean was written. As she evolved, her human relationships dissolved. Her marriage to Scott ended. Wolverine was not interested in her anymore. Her friendship with Beast frayed. No mention of her children Rachel or Cable.

Morrison wanted to make Jean Phoenix again to write her out of the picture and put Emma Frost in her place.

Hickman, like Bendis gave Jean emotional relationships and connections to other characters. She has two men now. She’s got a good working relationship with Emma Frost. Friends with Storm again (Morrison ignored Jean’s female relationships). The only other adult woman in the book was Jean’s rival for a man and that was pretty misogynistic.

It’s ridiculous for people to complain about Hickman’s Jean. She died along with a whole group of XMen to show the resurrection process.

Percy and other writers are working under the new universe set up by Hickman, so Jean in X-Force has his influence.

[MechaJeanix]

Well the X-men is a soap opera and while Jean and Emma did fight over a man in New X-men they also had scenes prior where they discussed other things. There was the issue where Jean and Beast discover Emma in Genosha, the scene where Jean calls her a bitch (it wasn't about Scott), the issue where they went on the psychic rescue, they walk and talk with each other in the issue about Jean's press conference, etc. So while they did duke it out during Murder at the Mansion I don't think New X-men was misogynist. They had a fight, but Jean also forgave and put Emma's diamond pieces back together.

Just my two cents on that. I know some would prefer the X-women never to fight but Emma and Jean have history. Plus I loved the fight issue because we don't see Jean do brutal very often.

[Phoenixx9]

Well the X-men is a soap opera and while Jean and Emma did fight over a man in New X-men they also had scenes prior where they discussed other things. There was the issue where Jean and Beast discover Emma in Genosha, the scene where Jean calls her a bitch (it wasn't about Scott), the issue where they went on the psychic rescue, they walk and talk with each other in the issue about Jean's press conference, etc. So while they did duke it out during Murder at the Mansion I don't think New X-men was misogynist. They had a fight, but Jean also forgave and put Emma's diamond pieces back together.

Just my two cents on that. I know some would prefer the X-women never to fight but Emma and Jean have history. Plus I loved the fight issue because we don't see Jean do brutal very often.

(Jean to Emma) "It's just you and me....and the Phoenix!"

[WallStreeter]

Well the X-men is a soap opera and while Jean and Emma did fight over a man in New X-men they also had scenes prior where they discussed other things. There was the issue where Jean and Beast discover Emma in Genosha, the scene where Jean calls her a bitch (it wasn't about Scott), the issue where they went on the psychic rescue, they walk and talk with each other in the issue about Jean's press conference, etc. So while they did duke it out during Murder at the Mansion I don't think New X-men was misogynist. They had a fight, but Jean also forgave and put Emma's diamond pieces back together.

Just my two cents on that. I know some would prefer the X-women never to fight but Emma and Jean have history. Plus I loved the fight issue because we don't see Jean do brutal very often.

Jean has to be killed off because Scott would have looked horrible if he had divorced Jean in order to get with Emma. That’s extremely misogynistic. I’m not saying the X-Women should never fight but as written by Morrison Jean had no female friends period and the only woman she interacted with was her rival for a man. That’s so awful he could not even be written today’s climate.

Jean put Emma back together, yes. Then tells Scott he can have Emma who made him so alive. This was so clearly written by a man who had not the slightest concern about women. That doesn’t seem like something a woman would do to a woman who just broke up her marriage.

Thank god Bendis ignored that crap and added a much more interesting dynamic to Emma and Jean.

[Havok83]

Bendis didnt ignore it. He very much addressed it, used it and respected it

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

Bendis and Hickman rebooted Jean’s character. And boy did she need it.

Outside of the Phoenix she was just Cyclops wife.

Bendis made Jeen more interesting by focusing more on her friendship and rivalries with other people. Jeen has rivalry issues with Quentin and the Cuckoos. Kitty became a mentor to Jean. More interestingly, Emma Frost became her telepathic instructor. Two women were able to focus on each other and not fight over a man.

Hickman carries that over to Jean and Emma being friends, especially now that Jean also sees Wolverine and before that she had a fling with Bishop. We see Jean full on as the mother to Rachel and Nate. She loves her children. She’s on the quiet council. She’s still good friends with Storm. It was Jean who convinced the council thst murder of humans was a serious crim because they cannot come back and even the former villains on the quiet council agreed with that. So she’s an effective leader.

She has also done intelligence and field operations for X-Force.

The 90s I felt it may have been good they ended her push because there was too much focus on her romantic love with Scott to the point where she had little life.

Hickman hasn't done one positive thing for Jean Grey, unless you count allowing her to keep a minor leadership position with the X-Men. Besides having her on the council, each time he has written her has been dreadful, and I am including the oh-so-amazing scenes in the later X-Men issues where she appears on panel and manages not to faint uselessly while doing nothing of note.

Which is fine. Writers don't have to use characters they don't like, but it was odd to read an opinion that he has "rebooted her character" in some sort of positive way when the only quality he has displayed in her is utter uselessness.

If anything, he has degraded her character. Luckily, we've had Percy giving a modern take on the character to counteract Marvel Damsel.

[Kingdom X]

Hickman hasn't done one positive thing for Jean Grey, unless you count allowing her to keep a minor leadership position with the X-Men. Besides having her on the council, each time he has written her has been dreadful, and I am including the oh-so-amazing scenes in the later X-Men issues where she appears on panel and manages not to faint uselessly while doing nothing of note.

Which is fine. Writers don't have to use characters they don't like, but it was odd to read an opinion that he has "rebooted her character" in some sort of positive way when the only quality he has displayed in her is utter uselessness.

If anything, he has degraded her character. Luckily, we've had Percy giving a modern take on the character to counteract Marvel Damsel.

I also think it’s weird that he mandated this costume change for a character he’s clearly not that interested in. I’m guessing that he has one big Jean/Phoenix moment planned for the climax of this run that’s supposed to justify the foolishness.

[WallStreeter]

I also think it’s weird that he mandated this costume change for a character he’s clearly not that interested in. I’m guessing that he has one big Jean/Phoenix moment planned for the climax of this run that’s supposed to justify the foolishness.

There’s nothing to indicate he’s not interested in Jean, and if what you said is true he’s very interested in her. Hickman focused on world building for the X-Men as the cure concept got rebooted.

[davetvs]

There’s nothing to indicate he’s not interested in Jean, and if what you said is true he’s very interested in her. Hickman focused on world building for the X-Men as the cure concept got rebooted.

Literally, where are people getting it from that he doesn't like Jean or doesn't want to use her? Fans of the X-Men who are really just fans of one character need to learn to give it a rest.

[johnnysv75]

Bendis and Hickman rebooted Jean’s character. And boy did she need it.

Outside of the Phoenix she was just Cyclops wife.

I love what Bendis did with Jeen. I have re-read his run several times. I binge read it the first time around, so excited about everything he did with Jeen.

Hickman doesn’t write Jean well. Taylor made a much better job with Jean, I have re-read X-Men Red even more than I have re-read Bendis’s X-books. (Not that hard since it was only 11 issues, but still.)

I like Percy’s Jean, I do, she is passionate and powerful and he gets her voice right, but I have no idea what she dreams about, what her goals are - I would love to get an insight into her thoughts and hopes and dreams.

[Harpsikord]

I've heard so many conflicting stories on whether Morrison wanted to keep Jean dead or not but he definitely didn't want to replace her with Emma. That was all editorial. Editorial were the ones that kept Jean dead for as long as they did, not Morrison. You can blame Quesada for that but he eventually left as well and the entire time that Alonso was in his role people were trying to bring Jean back as well and told no. The entire span of time that Jean was gone, people were trying to bring her back. That's important to remember.

As far as the Hickman era anything that Jean has done in the current era hasn't really been his idea; her role in the Quiet Council is fairly decent, but that's something that has largely been stated more than it's been seen. The Quiet Council are the Quiet Council for a reason, they're meant to exist and be in the background of the books but not really have anything to do otherwise. She has had amazing moments in X-Force and Giant-Sized X-Men Jean & Emma, but those should rightfully be attributed to Russell Dauterman and Benjamin Percy.

And on the topic of it I'm okay with Jean and Emma being friendly with one another. The constant bickering would have, eventually, gotten tiring and I think that Jean at the very least is above all that.

I think when it comes down to it that Jean will still be featured in X-Force. She's still been on the covers and her dynamic with Beast has absolutely not reached any sort of endgame yet, but she's also correct. Jean is the one that was pushing for the fact that the X-Men still had to be heroes and she's absolutely right that they do, but she's also unfortunately been saddled with a role that isn't exactly heroic. I think that she'll do well where she is because Benjamin Percy understands her well, but I'd like to see her in another position where she's being a hero and ideally a leader.

Do you guys think that we're going to see Jean in Taylor's AU comic? I honestly hope so. I hope that he's able to build on his idea of a mutant nation there. It's a shame, he had more stories planned for Red but because Hickman was coming in and they wanted to do the Uncanny relaunch they decided that Red couldn't continue as it was. Probably because they were worried people would enjoy the new status quo too much.

[franckd]

Jean has to be killed off because Scott would have looked horrible if he had divorced Jean in order to get with Emma. That’s extremely misogynistic. I’m not saying the X-Women should never fight but as written by Morrison Jean had no female friends period and the only woman she interacted with was her rival for a man. That’s so awful he could not even be written today’s climate.

Jean put Emma back together, yes. Then tells Scott he can have Emma who made him so alive. This was so clearly written by a man who had not the slightest concern about women. That doesn’t seem like something a woman would do to a woman who just broke up her marriage.

Thank god Bendis ignored that crap and added a much more interesting dynamic to Emma and Jean.

When Morrison killed Magneto, was it misogynistic too?

1990 : misogynist = someone who hates women.
2020 : misogynist = someone who says or does something I don't like.