Jean Grey: Phoenix/Marvel Girl Appreciation 2020

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

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[darewithpeace]

is giant size set on the future? maybe when we come to that time, jean will get that suit, i swear, i saw the marvel girl dress again on x men #9 and it wasnt good

[5cents]

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Hmmm now that it’s white color here, I wonder what it would look like if you add a golden cape?

[Devaishwarya]

I'm thinking she would look like an AU Supergirl.

[SiegePerilous02]

People are forgetting Claremont was mad because (1) he was forced to kill Jean after the editor saw her eat the star and kill all those veggies and (2) they brought her back behind his back after he already set up Rachel as her replacement.

I kind of can't blame him. The ending to DPS is one of the few instances where editorial interference lead to something good. That story is nothing without that ending, and the alternative (lobotomizing Jean) was really bad. He came around to it and built some great stories out of the fallout. Jean's resurrection (in a series of comics that are really bad, and inflict one of the most insulting retcons the franchise has seen) disrupted his saga, and I can't say her presence really enhances the franchise during his original run.

I feel like if Jean had to be resurrected, there were far better ways to do it. And Claremont should have had full control. On the other hand, I actually think the clone retcon and turn to Goblyn Queen made Maddie more memorable, because his original plan for her and Scott to be married was creepy/sad. As of now, the X-Men franchise is so far removed from Claremont's vision and death in comics is a complete joke anyway, that it's better for Jean to be around than not.

I agree that I wanted Jean to get the same treatment Scott got. He was separated from Jean and became this complex character that was very important to the franchise. I wanted Jean on her own and allowed to develop as well. But it was the editors that wanted Jean to remain dead so I put the blame on them. Of course we did get Jean in X-men Red and that was great but too short lived. I do love the current era and how Jean has been portrayed so far (for the most part) but once again she' connected to both Scott and Logan. At least she gets some good showing in X-force even though Logan is on that team.

I was just re-reading some of the Morrison era (including Jean's cameos in Xtreme X-men) and it was such a good era. Jean got so much focus (panel time and dialogue) in New X-men it will always boggle my mind that Jean fans hate it just because of some basic relationship drama and the fact that Jean died (hey at least she died at the end of the series). She was one of the major stars of Grant's run ( the others being Scott, Emma, and Xavier). She got to be written by the best X-men writer (as much as I like Hickman he is no Morrison - Morrison is so much better at characterization, dialogue and use of the character's powers).

Agreed. The Morrison hate is the main reason I typically avoid this thread despite loving Jean, because he wrote my favorite take on her. Grant loves to write superheroes as larger than life mythological archetypes, and I think Jean scratched that itch for him more than any other X-Man. It's why he's better suited for DC than Marvel, but Jean with all her Phoenix/death and rebirth imagery and themes (building off of what Claremont did, what with his narrations of her experiencing the Tree of Life) stands apart from other X-Men. She really is the main character of the run, she's still the heart and soul of the X-Men but we get a reminder that she also isn't just some bland saint that is put on a pedestal. She gets some of the best moments of the run.

I dislike that it ended in her death and it last so long, but 1. I feel the actual death in the run is more about her than Scott, it really only became about Scott and fridging in retrospect because other writers did jack with her and 2. I maintain she hasn't missed out on much between Morrison and Hickman anyway, so she was better off taking a break.

[MechaJeanix]

I kind of can't blame him. The ending to DPS is one of the few instances where editorial interference lead to something good. That story is nothing without that ending, and the alternative (lobotomizing Jean) was really bad. He came around to it and built some great stories out of the fallout. Jean's resurrection (in a series of comics that are really bad, and inflict one of the most insulting retcons the franchise has seen) disrupted his saga, and I can't say her presence really enhances the franchise during his original run.

I feel like if Jean had to be resurrected, there were far better ways to do it. And Claremont should have had full control. On the other hand, I actually think the clone retcon and turn to Goblyn Queen made Maddie more memorable, because his original plan for her and Scott to be married was creepy/sad. As of now, the X-Men franchise is so far removed from Claremont's vision and death in comics is a complete joke anyway, that it's better for Jean to be around than not.



Agreed. The Morrison hate is the main reason I typically avoid this thread despite loving Jean, because he wrote my favorite take on her. Grant loves to write superheroes as larger than life mythological archetypes, and I think Jean scratched that itch for him more than any other X-Man. It's why he's better suited for DC than Marvel, but Jean with all her Phoenix/death and rebirth imagery and themes (building off of what Claremont did, what with his narrations of her experiencing the Tree of Life) stands apart from other X-Men. She really is the main character of the run, she's still the heart and soul of the X-Men but we get a reminder that she also isn't just some bland saint that is put on a pedestal. She gets some of the best moments of the run.

I dislike that it ended in her death and it last so long, but 1. I feel the actual death in the run is more about her than Scott, it really only became about Scott and fridging in retrospect because other writers did jack with her and 2. I maintain she hasn't missed out on much between Morrison and Hickman anyway, so she was better off taking a break.

I tend to agree and we did have the Teen Jean stuff so Jean didn't have as big as a break as it would appear.

Do not let the negativity keep you out of the thread. Most of the Jean fans here love Morrison's run and his version of the character. From my experience the shipper fans are very vocal with hating on the New X-men era due to the relationship drama. I hate that I've become a broken record but when I see them spew incorrect information and stating their opinions as fact then I have to come in and correct the record. The Jean Grey character has a complex history and the fan base is very diverse so we will get a wide array of opinions and view points, which is what discussions are for. So I don't mind it as long as I get to do a rebuttal but I think everyone else gets annoyed with both sides of this never ending debate.

Edit: so called Jott shippers tend to hate the run and those who are upset that she died at the end. Of course during the time on all the boards there were the factions of those who preferred Claremont's Xtreme X-men vs those who preferred Morrison's New X-men. I recall those divisions and discussions well. The Morrison era brought on new fans to X-men as Morrison fanboys started reading X-men just like I'm sure Hickman has brought fans back into the fold and brought new fans who are fans of his work.

edit 2: All Jean fans should feel welcome even though we have different opinions and viewpoints.

[franckd]

FREE THIGHS

Hmmm now that it’s white color here, I wonder what it would look like if you add a golden cape?

Not gold but...

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

I'm not a Jott shipper in part because of the run, though Cyke was trash before then, re: Maddie. And I hate that his ultimate goal was about Jean getting wiped so Scott can have a new girlfriend without Jean having a life too, but I love Morrison's take on Jean. You saw all sides of her in that run; fierce, formidable, sad, angry/terrifying, heroic. He just had to be kinda what I see as typical of Scott shippers and freaked out/panicked at the idea of Jean moving on.

The run is already unquestionably legendary, but if that guy had let Jean live...lordy. People think that run started some mess but if we had Jean and Logan living life together as well, the drama would have been even more amazing.

[Vishop]

I'm not a Jott shipper in part because of the run, though Cyke was trash before then, re: Maddie. And I hate that his ultimate goal was about Jean getting wiped so Scott can have a new girlfriend without Jean having a life too, but I love Morrison's take on Jean. You saw all sides of her in that run; fierce, formidable, sad, angry/terrifying, heroic. He just had to be kinda what I see as typical of Scott shippers and freaked out/panicked at the idea of Jean moving on.

The run is already unquestionably legendary, but if that guy had let Jean live...lordy. People think that run started some mess but if we had Jean and Logan living life together as well, the drama would have been even more amazing.

I agree. She was strong, fierce, intense, passionate and most of all that's the best of her as Phoenix IMO. Though Morrison messed up their relationship for certainty.

[MechaJeanix]

I agree. She was strong, fierce, intense, passionate and most of all that's the best of her as Phoenix IMO. Though Morrison messed up their relationship for certainty.

You got it and said it better than I (and a with a lot fewer words). It sometimes feels like yesterday that I was reading New X-men as it came out. Those were just some good times in my life on top of enjoying the heck out of this run and his version of Jean. I associate New X-men with my 20's and my college days. It will always be something meaningful to me.

Edit: While I'm thinking of Morrison's run I loved how intimate it all was - that his setting was the school and mainly focused on that small core cast. I also liked how Jean used her powers in everyday ways (levitating her jacket, a glass of water during her press conference, a can of soda for Beast, mineral water for her and Xavier, wringing a hand towel, levitating a tool to Beast, etc. If you had psychic powers there are so many ways you can use them in everyday life.

[SiegePerilous02]

So barring all the stuff with Scott, I think Jean's best moments for herself in that run:

- "There's just a bunch of students and one uppity redhead to contend with."- John Sublime, before Jean makes utter fools out of the U-Men
- The silent issue with Emma
- The speech she gave to the assembled press. One of the best attempts at integration and I liked the friendly chats she had with that one newscaster.
- "You can die Charles. I'm going to catch you." and scaring Cassandra away with a Phoenix Raptor.
- "Jean is just the house where I live Charles," and all the cool dialogue about Xavier's thoughts burning to ash if he went into Jean's mind too far. And how the Phoenix was always the last hope and will always return
- Bringing Emma back to life
- The brief closeness she displayed with Ororo and Lorna in that one issue (hugs, offering naked Lorna her jacket, etc).
- All the OTT but awesome dialogue of Beast/Sublime and the biblical imagery surrounding Phoenix in Here Comes Tomorrow. I've seen it pointed out that she represents the "Woman Clothed in Sun," she's called "weapon of cosmic war in human form" and a "black, annihilating bride." so fucking metal.
"Did you think you would live forever, little speck?" as she kills the Big Bad of the run

DoX will not be a true definitive era of X-Men without some Jean/Phoenix moments. Whatever is going on with the Phalanx, it's said the only beings they fear are Galactus and the Phoenix. I'm hoping that's foreshadowing.

[spirit2011]

I tend to agree and we did have the Teen Jean stuff so Jean didn't have as big as a break as it would appear.

Do not let the negativity keep you out of the thread. Most of the Jean fans here love Morrison's run and his version of the character. From my experience the shipper fans are very vocal with hating on the New X-men era due to the relationship drama. I hate that I've become a broken record but when I see them spew incorrect information and stating their opinions as fact then I have to come in and correct the record. The Jean Grey character has a complex history and the fan base is very diverse so we will get a wide array of opinions and view points, which is what discussions are for. So I don't mind it as long as I get to do a rebuttal but I think everyone else gets annoyed with both sides of this never ending debate.

Edit: so called Jott shippers tend to hate the run and those who are upset that she died at the end. Of course during the time on all the boards there were the factions of those who preferred Claremont's Xtreme X-men vs those who preferred Morrison's New X-men. I recall those divisions and discussions well. The Morrison era brought on new fans to X-men as Morrison fanboys started reading X-men just like I'm sure Hickman has brought fans back into the fold and brought new fans who are fans of his work.

edit 2: All Jean fans should feel welcome even though we have different opinions and viewpoints.

did you ever saw a post of mine here?

I'm not a Jott shipper, I would love if Morrison had jean move away from Scott. but he did the exact opposite that Jean is always in love with Scott even he is a massive cheater.

The problem with overrated writers like Hickman and Morrison, is that there is very little space for criticizing them. Any critic become a hater or is too dumb to understand

[Peanutsinspace]

The problem with overrated writers like Hickman and Morrison, is that there is very little space for criticizing them. Any critic become a hater or is too dumb to understand

Nope. Posters get called a hater when they go into numerous threads (some which have nothing to do with Jott or Scemma) and regurgitate the same complaint or points that they've been complaining about for years. Those posters then turn every single thread overwhelmingly negative and sometimes even derail the thread just to argue their "point" because they can't let stuff go. That's why they get called a hater.


Aaaanyway, to other Jean fans, no, this thread is usually really great and filled with people that have a genuine love for the character. Don't stay silent, come say hello!!

[phoenixzero23]

This stuff, comics, are supposed to be about having fun but god some people really take this stuff like it is real (it isn't), kinda miss the point of this hobby.
They are all fictional characters with no agency.

Nope. Posters get called a hater when they go into numerous threads (some which have nothing to do with Jott or Scemma) and regurgitate the same complaint or points that they've been complaining about for years. Those posters then turn every single thread overwhelmingly negative and sometimes even derail the thread just to argue their "point" because they can't let stuff go. That's why they get called a hater.


Aaaanyway, to other Jean fans, no, this thread is usually really great and filled with people that have a genuine love for the character. Don't stay silent, come say hello!!

Hello Peanutsinspace
Thanks for being positive!

[MechaJeanix]

did you ever saw a post of mine here?

I'm not a Jott shipper, I would love if Morrison had jean move away from Scott. but he did the exact opposite that Jean is always in love with Scott even he is a massive cheater.

The problem with overrated writers like Hickman and Morrison, is that there is very little space for criticizing them. Any critic become a hater or is too dumb to understand

You say that criticizing overrated writers (again this is just your subjective opinion - you want to try using more qualifiers in your writing) means people will say you are a hater or "too dumb" but you neglect to state that those of us who counter your incorrect assertions do so with actually using facts from the books. We use facts and evidence. For example when you once said Jean was cold in New X-men and then I proceeded to list every single time she shown empathy and compassion during the run (which was a lot). It is ok if you hate it but you've said that over and over. But at least be honest about the run instead of making stuff up that is easily debunked by the very books you hate.

It is just better to be honest and less biased. X-books should be fun and we should all share things we enjoy but others have said it is hard to contribute to this thread because of a few that go on and on about the Scott and Jean breakup or poor Jean having her husband cheat on her, etc.