Jean Grey: Phoenix/Marvel Girl Appreciation 2020

[Gridde]

The fight scene between Jean and Rachel is from Taylor’s X-Men Red, issue 8 or 9ish I think! It’s definitely towards the latter part of that 12 issue run.

Thank you!

I actually don't mind the life-death cycle. It's the rest of the baggage that comes with the Dark Phoenix Saga - which, undoubtedly, was a fantastic story in 1980 but absolutely does not hold up in 2019 the way that it's written. Jean has practically no agency in it, and what agency she does have is choosing to kill herself when she could have just as easily instead have overcome the darkness of the Phoenix. But that rant is for another time.

The Jean v Rachel fight is from X-Men Red #9! It doesn't last very long because Rachel is fighting Cassandra Nova's indoctrination and holding back.

Agreed. Though IMO, a loooot of classic stories just don't hold up very well, often for the same reason (characters making strange, melodramatic choices that would be kinda laughable now).

I'm definitely glad they've done away with the Phoenix for now.

[franckd]

It is too bad that the original story has been mangled so much. I hate it when in recaps they say that Phoenix impersonated Jean or masqueraded as her. Even by the retcon and what was set up in Inferno and stories right afterward, Jean and Phoenix merged. Phoenix copied Jean's mind and body (sounds similar to the resurrection protocols doesn't it). And the Phoenix took a portion of Jean's consciousness and it was that part of Jean that even willed the Phoenix to commit suicide in Uncanny 137. It was the part that woke Maddie and it was the part that ultimately returned to Jean in inferno.

As much as I detest the retcon, Inferno made it ok for me because Jean regained the portion of herself within the Phoenix/Jean merger and she regained the memories. I know there were times they still acted like they were separate and other times not so much which makes it a confusing mess, but really Inferno in addition to the Classic X-men backstories about Jean/Phoenix essentially "fixed" the retcon that removed Jean from the Phoenix & Dark Phoenix sagas.

Other writers including Morrison really cemented the connection between Jean and Phoenix by making her Phoenix once again. Too bad, the creators (much like the fandom) are split with those that like Jean as Phoenix and those that do not like her being Phoenix. I wish we could have the best of both worlds and Jean could be portrayed as she was in Morrison's run... where she's a very powerful tp/tk but sometimes taps into the phoenix power (but not powered up to a cosmic level).

I agree. The retcon led to the worst imo. The Force - that was supposed to be only a force - became that evil cosmic entity that can possess anyone or can be taped by almost any mutant. The Phoenix became that kind of cosmic STD than anyone could catch. First, it was just Jean's ultimate potential. Then a force. Then an evil entity. Which was stupid. Did the Force, in Stars Wars became its own character by the way ?

Now, the Phoenix is just a convoluted and convenient plot device, that writers use the way they want, changing its nature, its story, its continuity according what's useful for them. No matter how stupid it is...

Morrison really help to merge both the original intended story and the retcon, and make it work. It was great. Obviously Mavel had to ignore it.

The current creatives should lean into Jean's life-death cycle as a prototype of the resurrection protocols. Give credit where credit is due: the phoenix force.

If only Phoenix had copyrighted the resurrection process, she would get royalties for every resurrection on Kraoka.

Joke aside, I love the Resurrection Protocoles, because they validate the fact that Phoenix was Jean, and not an imposter.

[Micabe]

OMG! The dialog hurts my eyes.

[Omega_DCD]

There is way too much John Byrne in this thread right now for me to be comfortable. Ultimately he was a raging sexist who hated that Jean became powerful and so when he was added to the X-Men, pushed way too hard for her to go bad because clearly a woman wouldn't be able to handle that kind of power.

Very much this. I wish I could find the text based pics I saved with some quotes regarding that time. Long story short, Claremont basically wanted Jean to be the X-Men's Thor...and was originally going to go up against the Silver Surfer, but Byrne said no female could beat SS...the battle was changed to Firelord, and only allowed to be a draw/unfinished.

Aside from that source, I read some comments years ago that D'Bari wasn't even originally supposed to be inhabited (like the animated series, where she still consumes a star and still is considered a huge threat, but not a genocidal mass murderer).

And yeah, Jean/Phoenix pretty much was the template for the resurrection process...and also the problem with duplicates

[Devaishwarya]

You all need to learn how to let go, entirely...or at the very least...don't hold on so tightly. Byrne is pretty much irrelevant to the X-Men in 2020, even more so than Claremont (from the perspective that both he and Byrne have absolutely no hand in how these characters are being written going forward...this is NOT their X-Men and they haven'y been for a very long time.)

[johnnysv75]

You all need to learn how to let go, entirely...or at the very least...don't hold on so tightly. Byrne is pretty much irrelevant to the X-Men in 2020, even more so than Claremont (from the perspective that both he and Byrne have absolutely no hand in how these characters are being written going forward...this is NOT their X-Men and they haven'y been for a very long time.)

Byrne is making his own X-Men web comic at the moment, that is what started the Byrne discussion.

[Phoenixx9]

Very much this. I wish I could find the text based pics I saved with some quotes regarding that time. Long story short, Claremont basically wanted Jean to be the X-Men's Thor...and was originally going to go up against the Silver Surfer, but Byrne said no female could be SS...the battle was changed to Firestorm, and only allowed to be a draw/unfinished.

Aside from that source, I read some comments years ago that D'Bari wasn't even originally supposed to be inhabited (like the animated series, where she still consumes a star and still is considered a huge threat, but not a genocidal mass murderer).

And yeah, Jean/Phoenix pretty much was the template for the resurrection process...and also the problem with duplicates

Perfectly stated!

It is good to hear/re-read this to keep the information clear in our own minds with all of the other things which we hear that are not necessarily true. (This is part of the reason new writers never get Jean and Phoenix correct--they need to know these facts, but they do not.)

[Devaishwarya]

Byrne is making his own X-Men web comic at the moment, that is what started the Byrne discussion.

"Let sleeping dogs lie" or rather "steer clear of bad fanfiction"

[Harpsikord]

"Let sleeping dogs lie" or rather "steer clear of bad fanfiction"

I mean, you've been on these boards for over two years now. At least. You should be well aware that people around here have discussions about days gone by and they aren't going to stop.

[Devaishwarya]

Discussing the merits of art created in "days gone by" is one thing but actively trying to discredit works (and their creators) because they don't fit with or seem to go against woke mentality is quite frankly ludicrous and serves absolutely no meaningful purpose other than to try to desperately "prove" how much more "evolved" we've become while following in those exact footsteps and actually proving we are not better nor evolved.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

Trash opinions are still trash, even when they are old. And old opinions can be wrong. Further, people are not obligated to withhold "current" or obvious opinions just because someone doesn't like them.

In addition to sexism, hasn't he put other little unsavory thoughts into the public air?

Now this trashy comic. Pak did the "The Phoenix Force wants to **** Cyclops" story like 15 years ago and somehow that managed to be better than the panels posted above lol

[Omega_DCD]

I got things mixed up, the sexist "Thor/Silver Surfer/Firelord can't be beat by a female" stuff was actually from Jim Shooter and Len Wein

“Our intent was to create an X-Men analog, if you will, to Thor – someone who was essentially the first female cosmic hero,” Claremont revealed in Phoenix: The Untold Story. “We thought at the time that we could integrate her into the book as well as Thor had been integrated into the Avengers. The problem with that is that it grew out of the synthesis between Dave and me. The fact that we had, in a sense, created her gave me a degree of involvement that (artist John Byrne) didn’t have, coming in seven issues later.”

Editorial resistance to Phoenix
“When we first introduced Phoenix, we wanted her to fight Thor or the Silver Surfer, but (new Editor-In-Chief) Jim Shooter wouldn’t allow it,” Cockrum told Comic Creators On X-Men. “He said no female is going to beat Thor or the Silver Surfer. We kind of sneaked around him by sending her up against Firelord, who had once fought Thor to a standstill. We established her power levels that way.”

“Dave and I kind of liked the idea that we had a female character who was cosmic. No one else did,” Claremont revealed in The Comics Journal. “Len Wein objected strenuously to our using Firelord if Phoenix beat him. We couldn’t have a lady character who’s cosmic, because – well, his argument was that it made the rest of the X-Men superfluous. We got around it by having the fight be a draw.”

But Byrne had his own messed up viewpoint of Jean/Phoenix

"Phoenix officially rejoined the X-Men in issue #110 in 1978, but John Byrne, who had taken over as X-Men artist from Dave Cockrum with X-Men #108, didn’t share Cockrum and Claremont’s enthusiasm for the Phoenix character. “I agitated to get her out of the book as quickly as possible – which is what we did,” he admitted in Phoenix: The Untold Story. “I didn’t like Phoenix since the word go. Because she instantly made the rest of the X-Men fifth wheels, you know? And she wasn’t even an X-Man.”

”Much as I would prefer to have it different – and this is why Phoenix isn’t on the cover or in the title logo – is that in the opinion of (X-Men editor) Roger Stern and John Byrne, she isn’t an X-Man,” Claremont revealed in The Comics Journal."

The whole article can be read here

http://secretsbehindthexmen.blogspot...o-die.html?m=1

[Wiccan]

Yup. Byrne never liked Jean. No reason her fans can't dislike him back.

[Phoenixx9]

Yeah, but Jean/Phoenix did not have a head-shot in the corner box ever like every other X-Man (except Prof X)----neither before issue #110 nor after---as well as not having an entry on the title page box. They completely left Jean Phoenix out.

[Wiccan]

Yeah, but Jean/Phoenix did not have a head-shot in the corner box ever like every other X-Man (except Prof X)----neither before issue #110 nor after---as well as not having an entry on the title page box. They completely left Jean Phoenix out.

It's said that the editor(Roger Stern) felt the same as Byrne, so that should be why she wasn't in the cornerbox even when Cockrum was in the book.