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  1. #5986
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian M. View Post
    Jean doesn’t need a ”roar feminist” moment to still be a major part of the book. So tired of everyone thinking she needs to proclaim something on behalf of all women. It’s pathetic.

    She’s a major part of this run. She’s doing great things. It’s ok to have a nice relationship, she’s not begging at the feet of Scott to do something.
    Jean would be a great avatar for feminism, she ws cheated, fridged, raped. She has the potential to be the next Captain Marvel.

    Nice relationship? no way

  2. #5987
    Smart & Swift & Violent Kitty&Piotr<3's Avatar
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    Not anti-feminism
    "Cyclops loves wilted roses because they remind him of dead redheads."
    -Gail

  3. #5988
    Ultimate Member Wiccan's Avatar
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    Ok I think I just got what's going on...

  4. #5989
    Smart & Swift & Violent Kitty&Piotr<3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by baxer View Post
    Jean would be a great avatar for feminism
    Fear of this is why there is such reluctance to show her being capable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    Ok I think I just got what's going on...
    What's going on?
    Last edited by Kitty&Piotr<3; 11-29-2020 at 06:54 PM.
    "Cyclops loves wilted roses because they remind him of dead redheads."
    -Gail

  5. #5990
    Mighty Member Peanutsinspace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulsword323 View Post
    This era isn't going to flop just because you want it to.
    This. Not to mention if it did flop that puts Jean in a precarious situation. The next writer may not even want her in their book. The books are doing well and Jean's getting exposure and with the new book coming out she's bound to get more, despite what the naysayers are regurgitating.

  6. #5991
    Smart & Swift & Violent Kitty&Piotr<3's Avatar
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    I don't think we have to worry about no one using Jean at all when there isn't a mandate to keep her fridged.

    Real question is, when she does appear, how is she presented?

    Less appearances can be good if it means she appears specifically under a writer that finds her interesting. Otherwise, you get writers trying to mischaracterize her years as Phoenix because her power makes them uncomfortable like it did Byrne, making her shaky and incompetent in dangerous moments, or simply degrading her abilities because the main character's love interest shouldn't be too strong.

    It's like Rogue and Gambit. They haven't appeared alot and honestly have been criminally absent, but they have also not been taken down a peg every time they appear or are mentioned. It just sucks that the home book they are in is maybe not the best for them. But if they had the right feel in that book, that would be all they needed. Jean kinda has that going in X-Force.
    Last edited by Kitty&Piotr<3; 11-29-2020 at 11:14 PM.
    "Cyclops loves wilted roses because they remind him of dead redheads."
    -Gail

  7. #5992

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post
    I don't think we have to worry about no one using Jean at all when there isn't a mandate to keep her fridged.

    Real question is, when she does appear, how is she presented?


    Less appearances can be good if it means she appears specifically under a writer that finds her interesting. Otherwise, you get writers trying to mischaracterize her years as Phoenix because her power makes them uncomfortable like it did Byrne, making her shaky and incompetent in dangerous moments, or simply degrading her abilities because the main character's love interest shouldn't be too strong.

    It's like Rogue and Gambit. They haven't appeared alot and honestly have been criminally absent, but they have also not been taken down a peg every time they appear or are mentioned. It just sucks that the home book they are in is maybe not the best for them. But if they had the right feel in that book, that would be all they needed. Jean kinda has that going in X-Force.

    These are the only issues I have with Hickman's Jean, I've said ad nauseum how I genuinely enjoy most of what Hickman has done for the overall X-men narrative.

    But I'll admit I'm a little jealous at the present he doesn't seem to take much joy in writing Jean as he does Xavier, Scott, Emma, Wolverine, Storm, Nightcrawler, Destiny, or any of the other slew of X-men he usually gravitates towards and expand the little things regarding their personalities and motivations. However, I think he is the first writer in years to make the X-men as a whole feel important, he is going out of his way to utilize and follow up on characters who are normally criminally underused! Jean isn't in a bad place for the short term, but this era is very reminiscent of her role in the 90's. Which had the side effect of defining Jean for an era and the effects of that mother hen role is still seen today. So much so many writers don't know who Jean is and she has a tendency to be everything from a mother hen to a hunter of stars without much nuance or depth in determining how or why her portrayals are so wildly different which brings us to Hickman's Jean which just fills like the epitome of the "girl" of the team.

    I truly look forward to things changing, but I've yet to read a scene of Hickman's Jean that felt like Jean, kinda feels like when he includes her he just needs her to get from point A to point C without much rhyme or reason, whereas with Scott for example, they are clear and concise reasons for Scott moving from point A to point B to point C.

  8. #5993
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post
    Fear of this is why there is such reluctance to show her being capable.
    They really doesn't want her as a solo protagonist. There is a lot to explore with Jean, maybe if we could get a OGN not related to continuity and krakoa we could get that Jean. Too bad only DC is doing th OGNs

    Quote Originally Posted by Peanutsinspace View Post
    This. Not to mention if it did flop that puts Jean in a precarious situation. The next writer may not even want her in their book. The books are doing well and Jean's getting exposure and with the new book coming out she's bound to get more, despite what the naysayers are regurgitating.
    She isn't the face or protagonist of the new era, s she would be fine

    Quote Originally Posted by Celestialbodies View Post
    These are the only issues I have with Hickman's Jean, I've said ad nauseum how I genuinely enjoy most of what Hickman has done for the overall X-men narrative.

    But I'll admit I'm a little jealous at the present he doesn't seem to take much joy in writing Jean as he does Xavier, Scott, Emma, Wolverine, Storm, Nightcrawler, Destiny, or any of the other slew of X-men he usually gravitates towards and expand the little things regarding their personalities and motivations. However, I think he is the first writer in years to make the X-men as a whole feel important, he is going out of his way to utilize and follow up on characters who are normally criminally underused! Jean isn't in a bad place for the short term, but this era is very reminiscent of her role in the 90's. Which had the side effect of defining Jean for an era and the effects of that mother hen role is still seen today. So much so many writers don't know who Jean is and she has a tendency to be everything from a mother hen to a hunter of stars without much nuance or depth in determining how or why her portrayals are so wildly different which brings us to Hickman's Jean which just fills like the epitome of the "girl" of the team.

    I truly look forward to things changing, but I've yet to read a scene of Hickman's Jean that felt like Jean, kinda feels like when he includes her he just needs her to get from point A to point C without much rhyme or reason, whereas with Scott for example, they are clear and concise reasons for Scott moving from point A to point B to point C.
    This is how I see Hickman using Jean, most a plot device
    Last edited by baxer; 11-30-2020 at 11:30 AM.

  9. #5994
    Fantastic Member GeneTitan's Avatar
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    Are Jean and Scott still married?
    Jean died back in the Morrison run-Marriage ends b/c of death.
    Scott died in Death of X-He wasn't married to Jean b/c she was dead (and Emma broke up with him during the Bendis run).
    Jean returns in Phoenix Resurrection-She isn't married to Scott b/c he's dead.
    Scott returns in the X-Men annual-They're not both alive.
    Jean and Scott both die and are resurrected in House of X.
    I have read everything since Phoenix Resurrection and don't recall seeing anything that explicitly states that Scott and Jean are still married.
    Did I miss something or has it been left purposely vague with them both living at the Summers House?

  10. #5995
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeneTitan View Post
    Are Jean and Scott still married?
    Jean died back in the Morrison run-Marriage ends b/c of death.
    Scott died in Death of X-He wasn't married to Jean b/c she was dead (and Emma broke up with him during the Bendis run).
    Jean returns in Phoenix Resurrection-She isn't married to Scott b/c he's dead.
    Scott returns in the X-Men annual-They're not both alive.
    Jean and Scott both die and are resurrected in House of X.
    I have read everything since Phoenix Resurrection and don't recall seeing anything that explicitly states that Scott and Jean are still married.
    Did I miss something or has it been left purposely vague with them both living at the Summers House?
    They are currently married. I dont think anything has been explicitly stated on paper but its been mentioned on Marvel.com and I believe JDW has confirmed it. Scott and Jean are written as a married couple in the books so it pans out

  11. #5996
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    They are currently married. I dont think anything has been explicitly stated on paper but its been mentioned on Marvel.com and I believe JDW has confirmed it. Scott and Jean are written as a married couple in the books so it pans out
    Another thing is that back on HOX #1 that kid called her Mrs. Grey.

  12. #5997
    Fantastic Member GeneTitan's Avatar
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    Totally missed all that. Thanks you two!

  13. #5998
    Smart & Swift & Violent Kitty&Piotr<3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celestialbodies View Post
    These are the only issues I have with Hickman's Jean, I've said ad nauseum how I genuinely enjoy most of what Hickman has done for the overall X-men narrative.

    But I'll admit I'm a little jealous at the present he doesn't seem to take much joy in writing Jean as he does Xavier, Scott, Emma, Wolverine, Storm, Nightcrawler, Destiny, or any of the other slew of X-men he usually gravitates towards and expand the little things regarding their personalities and motivations. However, I think he is the first writer in years to make the X-men as a whole feel important, he is going out of his way to utilize and follow up on characters who are normally criminally underused! Jean isn't in a bad place for the short term, but this era is very reminiscent of her role in the 90's. Which had the side effect of defining Jean for an era and the effects of that mother hen role is still seen today. So much so many writers don't know who Jean is and she has a tendency to be everything from a mother hen to a hunter of stars without much nuance or depth in determining how or why her portrayals are so wildly different which brings us to Hickman's Jean which just fills like the epitome of the "girl" of the team.

    I truly look forward to things changing, but I've yet to read a scene of Hickman's Jean that felt like Jean, kinda feels like when he includes her he just needs her to get from point A to point C without much rhyme or reason, whereas with Scott for example, they are clear and concise reasons for Scott moving from point A to point B to point C.
    Yeah, it's neat that Hickman had people hyped up about the X-line but if all he is going to do is have her suck at being a superhero, play telephone so the actually important character can talk, and just repeat what the main character says, she doesn't really gain any benefit from the hype.

    We must also note that "the X-Men are important again" was a big part of the marketing push. It wouldn't have had as large an effect with a less hyped up writer, but them pretty much announcing that the downplaying of the X-Men was over was part of why this era was such a big deal.

    Main thing though: Jean gets nothing but negative exposure if she is just going to be a version of how people describe 90s Jean. It only hurts her.

    The most memorable thing Jean Grey has done when being handled by Hickman is get told off by Wolverine and M for not understanding the mission and then falling to pieces during it.
    "Cyclops loves wilted roses because they remind him of dead redheads."
    -Gail

  14. #5999
    Ultimate Member Wiccan's Avatar
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    Look. HOX #4 Jean was bad. Hickman's Jean otherwise is... Not bad. I'm not by any means saying that it's great or even better than any particular writer's version besides like the TAS ones. But it's not giving her any "negative exposure"(outside of maybe people thinking her outfit looks ridiculous).

    I have been very clear about how I dislike her losing/giving away her position in the council. But that's in the sense that it takes away an interesting thing she had going and a kind of power/recognition we feel she deserves. That scene doesn't in any way though, show HER, as a character and person in a bad light. In fact it's a considerably good moment for her that most people seem to have appreciated.

  15. #6000
    Mighty Member Peanutsinspace's Avatar
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    Agreed.

    I didn't like her giving up her seat on the council either but we were never really able to see her do anything worthwhile on it anyway. We didn't get to see how she voted on most issues or saw her day to day on the council so while it sucks she loses that position of power, my hope is that she's utilized better in the upcoming book.

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