Jean Grey: Phoenix/Marvel Girl Appreciation 2020

[Phoenixx9]

It's said that the editor(Roger Stern) felt the same as Byrne, so that should be why she wasn't in the cornerbox even when Cockrum was in the book.

Ah so that explains it. I always HATED not seeing Jean's image each month, but always hoping to see her the next issue!

[MechaJeanix]

Yeah Bryne has said some awful things online going back years. He has made both homophobic and transphobic comments before.. or at the very least problematic comments.

I think we can safely say Matt Rosenberg was more of the Bryne camp than Claremont (thinking the Phoenix as inherently bad and destructive force).

I do fault Claremont some because at first Jean as Phoenix was a high powered tp/tk, and making her cosmic level was probably a step too far. I say that but I loved the healing of the M'Kraan crystal by Jean/Phoenix. The going nuts and eating a star was a bit much in Dark Phoenix, and as we all know Jim Shooter declared after that she had to die. Interestingly enough I met Jim Shooter last year at a con and he seems to stand by the decision of killing Jean (my partner and I rode an elevator with him and my partner was wearing a Dark Phoenix t-shirt so we spoke about the character). He also came across really conservative (he also made digs about Miles Morales and Bendis and doesn't seem to like current comic books).

The Phoenix mythos is a cluster for sure. It would take effort to make it viable to be with Jean again. I like the idea of a Thor level X-man, but didn't the X-men already have that with Storm? Or at the least Storm had that level of potential, but I understand Claremont wanting to shake Jean up back then.

Phoenix was once stated as Jean's ultimate potential as a psi and now that she's sans Phoenix, but still an omega level telepath and I'd love to see even more creative uses of her telepathy. Show us why she's omega. Give us some examples of what that means in practice. I'm not talking flashy feats for the sake of it or Jean just easily saving the day but just differentiating her from the other psionics. Quire dies a lot but at least we know how his telepathy is different (his see through mind, his thinking a million brilliant thoughts in seconds or whatever). Jean had her pink form that set her apart but it is not likely to be used. I do like what Percy has done with her in X-force (merging minds was a creative use of tp).

[Wiccan]

I think we can safely say Matt Rosenberg was more of the Bryne camp than Claremont (thinking the Phoenix as inherently bad and destructive force).

The Phoenix mythos is a cluster for sure. It would take effort to make it viable to be with Jean again. I like the idea of a Thor level X-man, but didn't the X-men already have that with Storm? Or at the least Storm had that level of potential, but I understand Claremont wanting to shake Jean up back then.

I have imagined some ideas to connect Jean and the Phoenix more, and justify her going back to being Phoenix for more reason than just "because the Phoenix wants to".

1) The Phoenix is weirdly "dying", and before she does, she goes to Jean, in hopes that Jean allows her to live through her. Jean and the Phoenix merge on a permanent state, meaning that "The Phoenix" as an entity that can go around possessing people, being separated into shards, laying eggs and etc doesn't exist anymore, and it's now just a power within Jean. Jean would still have kind of a "Phoenix persona" when using the powers, but it wouldn't be quite a "double personality". Think of something like the Avatar state, or, maybe more accuarately, how Adora turns into She-Ra, and that kinda changes her but at the same time she's still herself.

2) Jean, just like that Avengers BC Cavewoman, is like a human mirror of the Phoenix. Basically, what the Phoenix would be like had she been a human rather than a cosmic entity. That cavewoman is Jean's ancestor, and every few generations or centuries, a new "Phoenix" woman is born. This could also serve to explain why Jean was only born 150 years into the future in Here Comes Tomorrow. Hope could be one too, born before the right time due to the need to bring back the mutant species. This would bring Jean some angst over her self-identity and all, but she'd eventually come around her destinty as a Phoenix host.

[Grendel0606]

Yup. Byrne never liked Jean. No reason her fans can't dislike him back.

Not really true. Byrne likes Jean quite a lot. He just didn't like her as Phoenix.

[Del torro]

I got things mixed up, the sexist "Thor/Silver Surfer/Firelord can't be beat by a female" stuff was actually from Jim Shooter and Len Wein

“Our intent was to create an X-Men analog, if you will, to Thor – someone who was essentially the first female cosmic hero,” Claremont revealed in Phoenix: The Untold Story. “We thought at the time that we could integrate her into the book as well as Thor had been integrated into the Avengers. The problem with that is that it grew out of the synthesis between Dave and me. The fact that we had, in a sense, created her gave me a degree of involvement that (artist John Byrne) didn’t have, coming in seven issues later.”

Editorial resistance to Phoenix
“When we first introduced Phoenix, we wanted her to fight Thor or the Silver Surfer, but (new Editor-In-Chief) Jim Shooter wouldn’t allow it,” Cockrum told Comic Creators On X-Men. “He said no female is going to beat Thor or the Silver Surfer. We kind of sneaked around him by sending her up against Firelord, who had once fought Thor to a standstill. We established her power levels that way.”

“Dave and I kind of liked the idea that we had a female character who was cosmic. No one else did,” Claremont revealed in The Comics Journal. “Len Wein objected strenuously to our using Firelord if Phoenix beat him. We couldn’t have a lady character who’s cosmic, because – well, his argument was that it made the rest of the X-Men superfluous. We got around it by having the fight be a draw.”

But Byrne had his own messed up viewpoint of Jean/Phoenix

"Phoenix officially rejoined the X-Men in issue #110 in 1978, but John Byrne, who had taken over as X-Men artist from Dave Cockrum with X-Men #108, didn’t share Cockrum and Claremont’s enthusiasm for the Phoenix character. “I agitated to get her out of the book as quickly as possible – which is what we did,” he admitted in Phoenix: The Untold Story. “I didn’t like Phoenix since the word go. Because she instantly made the rest of the X-Men fifth wheels, you know? And she wasn’t even an X-Man.”

”Much as I would prefer to have it different – and this is why Phoenix isn’t on the cover or in the title logo – is that in the opinion of (X-Men editor) Roger Stern and John Byrne, she isn’t an X-Man,” Claremont revealed in The Comics Journal."

The whole article can be read here

http://secretsbehindthexmen.blogspot...o-die.html?m=1

Lol, it's hilarious how the different writers and editors kept going
"I don't want my Thor getting beat by a Female! "
" I don't want silver surfer getting beat by a female"
"I don't want Firelord getting beat by a female"

I guess no one should now that Carol gets to beat up all this characters now, it's Karma

[Grendel0606]

Lol, it's hilarious how the different writers and editors kept going
"I don't want my Thor getting beat by a Female! "
" I don't want silver surfer getting beat by a female"
"I don't want Firelord getting beat by a female"

I guess no one should now that Carol gets to beat up all this characters now, it's Karma

Yeah, but let's not forget, how many of the same writers treated Carol around the same time, clearly feeling she needed to be taken down a peg. Marcus, anyone?

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

Lol Jean has been offending misogynists since the 70s and yet it's almost a surprising miracle when she has a powerful moment of character or a feat in 2020.

[Thirteen]

On the topic of Jean being featured in the corner box on the comic covers, tribute to those covers where Ms Grey WAS featured:

(she looks kinda meek in the first 2 eh?)
X6.jpg
x7.jpg
x40.jpg

[Phoenixx9]

On the topic of Jean being featured in the corner box on the comic covers, tribute to those covers where Ms Grey WAS featured:

(she looks kinda meek in the first 2 eh?)
X6.jpg
x7.jpg
x40.jpg

I like how they would occasionally change the corner box images, especially when looks/costumes changed.

[Thirteen]

Jean fared better in the X-Factor years...
grey covers.jpg

[Omega_DCD]

On the topic of Jean being featured in the corner box on the comic covers, tribute to those covers where Ms Grey WAS featured:

(she looks kinda meek in the first 2 eh?)
X6.jpg
x7.jpg
x40.jpg

Jean fared better in the X-Factor years...
grey covers.jpg

Those are neat, thanks for posting 'em

[MechaJeanix]

Jean fared better in the X-Factor years...
grey covers.jpg

Love these!

My personal fav is from the gold team era (only because that is when I started reading the x-books). Gold Team headshot2.JPG

[Phoenixx9]

Love these!

My personal fav is from the gold team era (only because that is when I started reading the x-books). Gold Team headshot2.JPG

The others are fine, but I think Jean could be better.

[franckd]

As much I never like Jim Lee's suit design for Jean, I always loved the way he draws her face.

His alternate unpublished Phoenix design was not amazing either, but I would have enjoyed to see Jean wear it for a while.

[Phoenixx9]

As much I never like Jim Lee's suit design for Jean, I always loved the way he draws her face.

His alternate unpublished Phoenix design was not amazing either, but I would have enjoyed to see Jean wear it for a while.

I love how Jean is drawn here and I really love the costume---simple yet elegant while also being updated.