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  1. #5896
    Smart & Swift & Violent Kitty&Piotr<3's Avatar
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    I also haven't forgotten that while Emma and Cyclops get their own dedicated sections of the mutant dominion, Jean does not get her own space at all. It's the little things.

    (But of course, telephones don't need their own specially named homes or anything)


    Quote Originally Posted by Tank View Post
    I would like her plot in X-Force had her actually making tough decisions on her own. But once again all her actions are in the context of what Beast did/has done.
    She did have a tough choice in X-Force. Though she had to deal with pressure from Beast, and rightly told him to fuck off, she did ultimately have to make the choice to kill that one group of Terraverdeans.
    Last edited by Kitty&Piotr<3; 11-27-2020 at 04:45 PM.
    "Cyclops loves wilted roses because they remind him of dead redheads."
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  2. #5897
    Ultimate Member Wiccan's Avatar
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    I agree that she had agency in X-Force. I think the "problem" they're trying to point out is that the plot doesn't/didn't quite have much to do with Jean herself? Compared to, say, Excalibur with all it's Brian/Jamie/Otherworld plots that are specifically related to Betsy, or Marauders with all the drama in the Hellfire Club surrounding Kitty.

    But that's because those are books with very clear protagonists, unlike X-Force(Domino's subplot is weirdly the closest they get to that lol).

  3. #5898
    Smart & Swift & Violent Kitty&Piotr<3's Avatar
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    Yeah X-Force focuses on some things I might say get too much panel time, but it is hard to complain when the bits that are about the parts of the cast I am more interested in are super-good.
    "Cyclops loves wilted roses because they remind him of dead redheads."
    -Gail

  4. #5899
    Mighty Member MechaJeanix's Avatar
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    I for one would love to see Jean centered in Hickman's stories. I just don't expect it so I'm not disappointed. Overall I enjoy the current era so I don't want to get to a point where I just hate read the X-men (been there, done that - and I assume most of us have been there at one time or another). I'm just trying to enjoy it for what it is and much of it I truly enjoy.

    X-men 15 had a lot of Cyclops content but I wasn't unhappy with Jean in the issue. We did see that she was disappointed with the QC vote but I thought she was strong in her un-wavering declaration that she was going with Cyclops to Otherworld .. she was going on the mission to save her son and to save their people. She took the consequences.

  5. #5900
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post
    I also haven't forgotten that while Emma and Cyclops get their own dedicated sections of the mutant dominion, Jean does not get her own space at all. It's the little things.

    (But of course, telephones don't need their own specially named homes or anything)
    Yeah, Jean get nothing because she is attached to Scott. Really not fair

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Lol still not enough to justify the "housewife" complaints. It's making a mountain out of an ant hill.

    Thus far, Jean isn't one of the characters to get a lot of in depth focus in the main X-series, and I'm hoping that changes personally. But there isn't a rigid rule that she has to be one of those characters either.
    Seems to be enough, there is a lot of complaints about it. i think is very fair, writers have to stop writing female chaarcters like that
    Last edited by baxer; 11-27-2020 at 05:14 PM.

  6. #5901
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    I think every one should tweet not just Hickman, but to White and other executives at Disney/Marvel. This is the 21st century and there was no reason to turn such a powerful woman into her 60s or 70s depiction.

    With that said I do think they are slowly listening to fans. Jean going against QC and deciding to fight to
    Save her son and her friends is still huge and better than just sitting on the council doing nothing. She’s going to co lead the X-Men with Scott. I can wait till she gets out of that tacky green dress and becomes Phoenix.

  7. #5902
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    If shes going against the QC it was likely always planned that way.

    Nothing productive will come from tweeting creators because Twitter just brings out the worst in people

  8. #5903
    Smart & Swift & Violent Kitty&Piotr<3's Avatar
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    On Jean and co-leading the X-Men:

    No such thing. There's always a leader unless there is a literal government, which was what Jean was part of before she apparently needed to be taken down yet another peg. Now maybe she will be giving the rest of "the X-Men" orders after the leader has made a decision, but I wouldn't expect anything more than that, given the material that the writer has given her previously.
    "Cyclops loves wilted roses because they remind him of dead redheads."
    -Gail

  9. #5904
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    If shes going against the QC it was likely always planned that way.

    Nothing productive will come from tweeting creators because Twitter just brings out the worst in people
    And constantly whining on a message board somehow is more productive?

    Don’t get me wrong, there’s plenty I don’t like about Jean Frey in Hickman’s run. No nees to repeat myself.

    But some people have given detailed explanations on what saw as misogynistic writing on the hands of Hickman affected them and they should communicate that to Disney and Marvel via Twitter email or whatever. Companies eventually respond to public opinion and I’m pretty sure they aware of mass consensus on Jean Grey sucking under Hickman. It’s not like these complaints are new. What’s new is Marvel is finally acknowledging this, and having Jean be something besides the soft voice on the Quiet Council(suggesting no humans be killed).

    Her leading mutants into battle and saying don’t hold back or you’re dead for real is a complete reversal of that.

  10. #5905
    Spectacular Member Exodus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post
    On Jean and co-leading the X-Men:

    No such thing. There's always a leader unless there is a literal government, which was what Jean was part of before she apparently needed to be taken down yet another peg. Now maybe she will be giving the rest of "the X-Men" orders after the leader has made a decision, but I wouldn't expect anything more than that, given the material that the writer has given her previously.
    Jean being an active member at the council is more interesting to me than her being part of an x-men team (but I agree her voice at the council has been often reduced to: "be more kind people!!"). It really suits her being there. The council was the most interesting aspect of Krakoa so far in my eyes. I've loved every meeting scene. The idea of a single leader is so outdated in my eyes. I also think that Storm, Nightcrawler, and Jean have been beautifully chosen to represent the X-Men at the council.

    Maybe I have enjoyed X-Men: Red a little bit too much but I think that Jean would make a perfect politician and the storyline leaving the council would have been more suitable for a character like Storm.

    I'm also not quite sure I understand why Jean felt the need to left X-Force because it is morally too grey in her eyes but now she starts a new (morally less problematic) mutant strike force with Cyclops...
    Last edited by Exodus; 11-27-2020 at 11:09 PM.

  11. #5906
    Smart & Swift & Violent Kitty&Piotr<3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exodus View Post
    Jean being an active member at the council is more interesting to me than her being part of an x-men team (but I agree her voice at the council has been often reduced to: "be more kind people!!"). It really suits her being there. The council was the most interesting aspect of Krakoa so far in my eyes. I've loved every meeting scene. The idea of a single leader is so outdated in my eyes. I also think that Storm, Nightcrawler, and Jean have been beautifully chosen to represent the X-Men at the council.

    Maybe I have enjoyed X-Men: Red a little bit too much but I think that Jean would make a perfect politician and the storyline leaving the council would have been more suitable for a character like Storm.

    I'm also not quite sure I understand why Jean felt the need to left X-Force because it is morally too grey in her eyes but now she starts a new (morally less problematic) mutant strike force with Cyclops...
    I don't think the Cyclops book will be a strike force. More of just straight super heroics, so no moral quandary involved.

    To be honest, I am just as disinterested in Storm not being able to handle being on the council as I am Jean. Both of them should be there and fully participating in the major happenings of the line.

    I definitely agree that the council is one of the good parts of the Krakoa status quo. That's why it sucks that Jean is being removed from that just so that she can go do Emma's dumb "Cyclops has a plan" cheerleading moments.

    Lame, lame, lame.
    "Cyclops loves wilted roses because they remind him of dead redheads."
    -Gail

  12. #5907
    Spectacular Member Exodus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post
    I don't think the Cyclops book will be a strike force. More of just straight super heroics, so no moral quandary involved.

    To be honest, I am just as disinterested in Storm not being able to handle being on the council as I am Jean. Both of them should be there and fully participating in the major happenings of the line.

    I definitely agree that the council is one of the good parts of the Krakoa status quo. That's why it sucks that Jean is being removed from that just so that she can go do Emma's dumb "Cyclops has a plan" cheerleading moments.

    Lame, lame, lame.
    I also don't really understand the motivation of making Jean Grey predominantly the supportive woman on Cyclops side without even giving those characters a explicit dialogue how they have managed to overcome their marriage problems of the past (besides the lazy motivation of being a family unit for their kids!). Morrison already developed Jean as the new leader of the X-Men taking over the school for Prof. X and suddenly she is again regressed into mainly being the supportive wife of her husband and her family is the only thing that truly matters to her. That's so off and random. "Let's save our son!!" "my husband is right!!" are the only things Jean is able to say.

    But I guess that's how straight cis men see the world and women in it......I wished we could send Hickman some books to read. )
    Last edited by Exodus; 11-28-2020 at 01:44 AM.

  13. #5908
    Smart & Swift & Violent Kitty&Piotr<3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exodus View Post
    I also don't really understand the motivation of making Jean Grey predominantly the supportive woman on Cyclops side without even giving those characters a explicit dialogue how they have managed to overcome their marriage problems of the past (besides the lazy motivation of being a family unit for their kids!). Morrison already developed Jean as the new leader of the X-Men taking over the school for Prof. X and suddenly she is again regressed into mainly being the supportive wife of her husband and her family is the only thing that truly matters to her. That's so off and random. "Let's save our son!!" "my husband is right!!" are the only things Jean is able to say.

    But I guess that's how straight cis men see the world and women in it......I wished we could send Hickman some books to read. )
    I won't say Hickman is sexist. He has the female characters he likes and wants to be important, capable, and self-driven; namely his version of Moira and Emma Frost. He also has a long-term plot for Mystique. He just doesn't like Jean Grey.

    He wants his lead character to have a love interest support character that doesn't get in the way of his lead's story and has no other interest in Jean, so that's where he has placed her.
    Last edited by Kitty&Piotr<3; 11-28-2020 at 02:47 AM.
    "Cyclops loves wilted roses because they remind him of dead redheads."
    -Gail

  14. #5909
    Spectacular Member Exodus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post
    I won't say Hickman is sexist. He has the female characters he likes and wants to be important, capable, and self-driven; namely his version of Moira and Emma Frost. He also has a long-term plot for Mystique. He just doesn't like Jean Grey.

    He wants his lead character to have a love interest support character that doesn't get in the way of his lead's story and has no other interest in Jean, so that's where he has placed her.
    For me, Jean Grey's depiction so far is very much sexist. I don't care how Hickman is in private. Moria does not really exist besides being a plot device. All other women he writes well seem to be exactly the same person (Frost, M, and this blonde otherworld lady).

    It seems to be a comic book run structured around a boys club.

  15. #5910
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    I'm not a crystal ball owner so I can't say where things are headed but I disagree with the notion that Hickman does not like Jean, I'm positive that things for her could be worse, much worse....... there is potential in Hickman storytelling and my hope is he has something interesting planned for her further down the line, if stars align, once this latest avengers travesty will be over, the phoenix could finally be free and Hickman could possibly put some order in the mess that has been made of the concept....... also I wouldn't be a Jean fan if I did not like the occasional power feat so if the Phoenix and Jean are not fated to once again cross roads why not explore what it actually means to be a omega level telepath (still missing the "pink psionic form").
    "I'm looking forward to the court appearances without spray tan, hair dye and a professional comb-over."

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