Jean Grey: Phoenix/Marvel Girl Appreciation 2020

[Havok83]

Saturnyne is Guardian of the Omniverse and the level of magic she has is way beyond ANY mutant telepath. Jean would need to be Phoenix to breach this.

"most" mutant telepaths. Jean breaching her without the Phoenix is a big enough feat to justify her omega status

[Devaishwarya]

Well, I do not think I make note of it much at all; just joining in the current conversation that is going on.

Also, I was asking questions to see if I missed something information-wise. Like is this the real JG of E-616? Is her mind all there or is Jean's mind only that up to the green MG costume (which would explain why she is wearing it)?

In responding to your post, I was generally referring to the "detractors" at large not you specifically.
As to the "questions"...Jean has worn her XMR uniform a few times with HiX-Man's approval. With respect to her MG dress...it's probably more a preference on HiX-Man's part now, more than any well-laid plans.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

Because that's ALL most of you seem to be interested in or care about. He's clearly having a good laugh at your expense.

What the "detractors of the dress" don't seem to get is...It's comics...Jean can show up and show out regardless of what she's wearing.
It's not any different than Tigra, really....is she any less of a superhero, a strong capable beauty-full one at that, but for the fact her costume was a bikini?
Again...comics.

The irony of this would-be antagonistic post is that Jean Grey isn't presented as strong and capable in this era lmao

ANYWHO, as far as costumes, if the Phoenix identity is off-limits because its intimidating to dudes or whatever and we can't have Asrar or Asra/Dauterman, I'd like to see a return to the ass-kicking black leather

Give us something here, Marvel.

[nandes]

Would people hold Jean's recent standout moments (like leading a team to clean out a biological infection in an entire country with her TK) to a higher regard simply if she was wearing a different costume?

[Devaishwarya]

Would people hold Jean's recent standout moments (like leading a team to clean out a biological infection to an entire country with her TK) to a higher regard simply if she was wearing a different costume?

I would say yes.
Because clearly for some...HiX-Man has insidiously calculated to keep her down and low by simply forcing all the artists to illustrate her wearing her MG dress. The sexist swine! LOL (just in case my post should be erroneously misconstrued by the less astute for anything but light discourse.)

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

Would people hold Jean's recent standout moments (like leading a team to clean out a biological infection in an entire country with her TK) to a higher regard simply if she was wearing a different costume?

Good point. I was mainly thinking about Hickman's depiction when I said "era". She definitely has had her moments on X-Force.

[nandes]

Good point. I was mainly thinking about Hickman's depiction when I said "era". She definitely has had her moments on X-Force.

Yeah like actually I'm not the biggest fan of the costume either and I would rather see her in something else. But I just find it a bit tiring when the discourse around it implies that she's being mind controlled or reset to the 60's when she's had a good run on X-Force, even though obviously it would be good to see that more often too.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

Yeah like actually I'm not the biggest fan of the costume either and I would rather see her in something else. But I just find it a bit tiring when the discourse around it implies that she's being mind controlled or reset to the 60's when she's had a good run on X-Force, even though obviously it would be good to see that more often too.

I can't speak for others, but while I love X-Force and her depiction in it, I kinda forget it when she pops up in the main stories under the main writer. What's in side books isn't always acknowledged.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

But at least he put her on the council.

[WallStreeter]

"most" mutant telepaths. Jean breaching her without the Phoenix is a big enough feat to justify her omega status

Saturnyne as Omniversal Majestrix has destroyed dimensions to protect the Integrity of the Omniverse. No mutant telepath is doing anything against all that. Jean would heed to be Phoenix to get anywhere with that. This current Marvel Girl got killed by lame sentinels at the beginning of Hickman’s run. No way can she deal with a being like Saturnyne.

[WallStreeter]

Because that's ALL most of you seem to be interested in or care about. He's clearly having a good laugh at your expense.

What the "detractors of the dress" don't seem to get is...It's comics...Jean can show up and show out regardless of what she's wearing.
It's not any different than Tigra, really....is she any less of a superhero, a strong capable beauty-full one at that, but for the fact her costume was a bikini?
Again...comics.

Comics are visual mediums and costumes do indeed matter and affect a characters popularity. Otherwise characters would just wear street clothes all the time!

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

Jean's street clothes in X-Men Red were pretty neat actually

[Exodus]

How I see it (being frank here for a quick second): I think Hickman will definitely not change the pin-up costume in the future now that he has received criticism for it online. He writes like a typical straight white cis-male who simply cannot respond well to criticism without being defensive ("hihi, free the tights bullsh*t"). Judging him only by his work, I can imagine he thinks of himself to be one of the good progressive straight cis men because others are worse but his writing seem to be dominated by a desire to write white straight cis characters and for this particular narrow group of readers.

In his X-Men run Jean mainly is defined as a "mom" for Cable and a "partner" for Cyclops/Wolverine (maybe in an open relationship but still Cyclops' and Wolverine's partner). Hence, she is a typical sexist idea of femininity mainly defined by her relationship with men and by her "servitude" towards men (even in X-Force it seems to be her main task to keep the boys in line! because boys will be boys!)

In X-Men Red Jean started a new mutant nation without national borders by bringing the smartest minds on earth together. She clearly was presented as a omega level mutant leader trying to fundamentally change the rules of the world for the better. three months later all of it is conveniently forgotten to create a new regressive nation state! It would have been so easy to include Jean's concept into Hickman's universe retcon. But he cannot do this because in the end he writes comicbooks for straight cis men like himself and from his particular positionality which will always put characters like Xavier, Magneto, Cyclops, and Apocalypse first.

#endoffanboyrant

[Conor]

How I see it (being frank here for a quick second): I think Hickman will definitely not change the pin-up costume in the future now that he has received criticism for it online. He writes like a typical straight white cis-male who simply cannot respond well to criticism without being defensive ("hihi, free the tights bullsh*t"). Judging him only by his work, I can imagine he thinks of himself to be one of the good progressive straight cis men because others are worse but his writing seem to be dominated by a desire to write white straight cis characters and for this particular narrow group of readers.

In his X-Men run Jean mainly is defined as a "mom" for Cable and a "partner" for Cyclops/Wolverine (maybe in an open relationship but still Cyclops' and Wolverine's partner). Hence, she is a typical sexist idea of femininity mainly defined by her relationship with men and by her "servitude" towards men (even in X-Force it seems to be her main task to keep the boys in line! because boys will be boys!)

In X-Men Red Jean started a new mutant nation without national borders by bringing the smartest minds on earth together. She clearly was presented as a omega level mutant leader trying to fundamentally change the rules of the world for the better. three months later all of it is conveniently forgotten to create a new regressive nation state! It would have been so easy to include Jean's concept into Hickman's universe retcon. But he cannot do this because in the end he writes comicbooks for straight cis men like himself and from his particular positionality which will always put characters like Xavier, Magneto, Cyclops, and Apocalypse first.

#endoffanboyrant

This is exactly why I find it hard to warm to Hickman. Under his pen, it’s a boys club. He doesn’t seem to have nearly as much interest in writing compelling female characters and honestly, as a gay man I’ve always identified more with female characters than male so naturally I want to see Jean and other female characters flourish. The way Jean’s taken a back seat in the DoX era when she had SO much agency in X-Men Red is, frankly, insulting to the character and to the Jean Grey fans as a whole. Thankfully Percy has given her some nice moments to shine over on X-Force, which in a small way, does compensate for Hickman’s underwhelming characterisation of her. I’m not greedy. I don’t expect her to be plastered on every cover and serving on every team but what I would like is for Hickman to re-evaluate his stance on Jean and cut the 60s back-seat driver crap he has going on with her.

[Exodus]

This is exactly why I find it hard to warm to Hickman. Under his pen, it’s a boys club. He doesn’t seem to have nearly as much interest in writing compelling female characters and honestly, as a gay man I’ve always identified more with female characters than male so naturally I want to see Jean and other female characters flourish. The way Jean’s taken a back seat in the DoX era when she had SO much agency in X-Men Red is, frankly, insulting to the character and to the Jean Grey fans as a whole. Thankfully Percy has given her some nice moments to shine over on X-Force, which in a small way, does compensate for Hickman’s underwhelming characterisation of her. I’m not greedy. I don’t expect her to be plastered on every cover and serving on every team but what I would like is for Hickman to re-evaluate his stance on Jean and cut the 60s back-seat driver crap he has going on with her.

It is exactly the same for me. It is just really frustrating to see the well-done craftsmanship and grandeur of Hickman's writing but at the same time we have to realize how deeply heterosexism is engrained in it as well. Sometimes I cannot even articulate my response/resentment. It is something you just affectively know deep down reading the work of a particular author! In the end, comicbooks remain a heterosexist medium. Unfortunately, I think it is a sad truth that queers and cishet women are not the targeted audience for those writers. We are here, we support the medium but deep down most authors (and the company at large) do not really care about us as all....

It would be so nice to have Jean, Storm & Nightcrawler finally taking over the council by demanding recognition for their past work in "X-Men Red" and that their work is taken seriously by the Boys Club running Krakoa.

p.s.
I also predominately identify with female characters. I cannot even watch movies without female leads (my Netflix algorithm says so lol ;-)) . I think Storm and Jean are probably some of the first characters in my childhood I've deeply identified with. So seeing Jean becoming "mommy dearest" only caring about her son is kind of heartbreaking (like wtf?!).