Jean Grey: Phoenix/Marvel Girl Appreciation 2020

[whitecrown]

Am I the only one that loves Jean Grey as Phoenix in name only without the Phoenix force but with the uniform and her pink energy powers? I loved it in the late 90’s when she would manifest a pink Phoenix raptor and reclaimed the costume as her own.
I also love stories the feature Jean and Ororo together, kicking ass.

On a side note, will Jean have a role in the X of Swords story? Seams unlikely and I’m just not hyped to read it.

I'm fine with that incarnation of Phoenix and I posted in the previous two pages images of her using the pink phoenix raptor from the late 90s and the Revolution period under Claremont. I would like to see more of Jean with her female friendships like Ororo, Lorna, and Betsy.

[whitecrown]

it is your opinion.

Claremont did a much better run, simonson was also far more interesting

Same, two of my favorite two eras.

[whitecrown]

I remember someone telling about this promo with the couples, funny that Jean and Loga nwere never together to be reunited again.
bendis no doubt would write her if they let, but Jean couldn't even be alive outside of x-books. Quesada wanted to kill Jean popularity.

writers that are big fans of Emma Frost, you just can't trust them. First what Morrison did, then Quesada, Fraction.
Hickman did a pool about who was the Karen of x-men comics, he just deleted when Emma was winning it and Jean has less votes. It wasn't a joke at all.
Also he could get Jean off Scott since he doesn't like them together, but he wants to make her a basic housewife



you know the editor is lying because nobody cares about land work, kirkham is a better penciller.

If they wanted to bring Jean on the third part they would have done, as Jean would bring sales high. he just covering the failure of not having Jean

I think maybe Bendis would have put Logan and Jean together since he wanted them on the same team and was teasing their return in that promo.

Look at the writers who were big fans of Jean and their contributions to the character: Claremont, Byrne, Simonson, Lobdell, Remender, Bendis, etc. I trust them way more with Jean than Hickman, Fraction, Morrison, and especially the likes of Quesada who truly has something against redheads considering what he did to Peter and MJ's marriage. So glad he was demoted.

I had no idea Hickman did that poll about the "Karen of X-Men." I know he wasn't a fan of Jean from past interviews but that's a new low. And to think some "Jean fans" here are defending him and his run after that. Nothing could be more clear about his animosity towards her than that.

The reason they never did a third part is because they never wanted to bring her back in the first place. The only sequel they were interested in was trying to boost the fake blonde and her clones and it backfired spectacularly.

[franckd]

Talking about New X-men sent me to nostalgia. So I googled it and I found amazing reviews of the run. I won't copy/paste or link them, as I'm aware that I would not change anything. And I don't need ton convince anyone. But it's so amazing to read intelligent reviews, filed with respect and love. It's refreshing.

[spirit2011]

I think maybe Bendis would have put Logan and Jean together since he wanted them on the same team and was teasing their return in that promo.

Look at the writers who were big fans of Jean and their contributions to the character: Claremont, Byrne, Simonson, Lobdell, Remender, Bendis, etc. I trust them way more with Jean than Hickman, Fraction, Morrison, and especially the likes of Quesada who truly has something against redheads considering what he did to Peter and MJ's marriage. So glad he was demoted.

I had no idea Hickman did that poll about the "Karen of X-Men." I know he wasn't a fan of Jean from past interviews but that's a new low. And to think some "Jean fans" here are defending him and his run after that. Nothing could be more clear about his animosity towards her than that.

The reason they never did a third part is because they never wanted to bring her back in the first place. The only sequel they were interested in was trying to boost the fake blonde and her clones and it backfired spectacularly.

Quesada was bored, he decided to screw over marriages and redheas. I'm glad Feige took over his job.

Nothing good will come from writers that doesn't like Jean and actively had belittled Jean over the years.

The Karen pool was just after a incident involving a white woman calling cops on a innocent black man, I thought it was really bad taste. and even worse that it went wrong and then he simply deleted.
Funny enough he didn't found time to tweet about black lives matter.
He also asked people to vote on Thor against Jean on that popularity poll, I see no reason to defend Hickman writing and treatment of Jean.
It's awful going from Taylor to Hickman, that actively wrks to undermine Jean.

Endsong and the sequels were never meant to bring back Jean, just to use phoenix to write bad fanfic. When they saw that the second series underperformed and there was a good pitch for the messiah story, they just dropped it.

Talking about New X-men sent me to nostalgia. So I googled it and I found amazing reviews of the run. I won't copy/paste or link them, as I'm aware that I would not change anything. And I don't need ton convince anyone. But it's so amazing to read intelligent reviews, filed with respect and love. It's refreshing.

Calling negative reviewers of Morrison as illiterates and hateful wont change nobody opinion

[franckd]

The thing I like about the resurrection protocole, is that basically, it kinda retcons the Phoenix cocoon retcon :
Phoenix Jean (Original CC's run) was Jean. As the force copied her body and soul, like the 5 recreate a body and Xavier transfers its back up memories to it.

Anything that retcons the retcon is good in my book. Morrison did a great job, from this standpoint too.

[MechaJeanix]

To be fair a lot of X-Men fans were not a fan of Morrison's run when it came out and felt it went against everything the X-Men had been since their inception. A lot of fans stopped reading the book then or cut off their personal canon there and I've seen sales reports for the X-Men and while they were always the top selling books in the 90s, that changed by the time of Morrison's run and for good reason.

This is simply not true but you can continue to believe it. I not only read the book as they came on but I participated on this forum, X-fan (later renamed comixfan), superhero hype, Wizard world, the original Jean Grey Message board, and a few more. While it is true the online community is not representative of x-fans as a whole , the books sold really well for that era (of course they weren't selling at the numbers of the early 90s) but they were consistently in the top 10 if not the top 5 selling comics each month. A lot of fans did enjoy the run and on the online forums it was def. the majority. It was a critically acclaimed run and I'd be willing to bet that most fans still appreciate it and the majority appreciated it when it came out (there are always those who didn't enjoy it but they always seemed like a loud vocal minority)

Morrison's run is similar to Hickman's in that some people will not enjoy it because they feel it deviates too much to what they feel is familiar. Hickman's deviates way more than Morrison's because he has added the whole resurrection thing as well as he united all mutants under a new mutant nation. Morrison's run highlighted some specific characters and centered the Xavier school.

I get that some do not appreciate the Grant Morrison era, and that is fine but I will always challenge the untruths that some fans claim about the run. Believe what you will but try to be factual.

At least where this thread is concerned Morrison gave us a great version of Jean Grey and that is something at least we can appreciate even if one is still upset about her death or the relationship drama with Scott and Emma. All I ask is for folks to consider the other parts of the run. Hint: the death and the relationship drama was not the entire run.

[whitecrown]

Quesada was bored, he decided to screw over marriages and redheas. I'm glad Feige took over his job.

Nothing good will come from writers that doesn't like Jean and actively had belittled Jean over the years.

The Karen pool was just after a incident involving a white woman calling cops on a innocent black man, I thought it was really bad taste. and even worse that it went wrong and then he simply deleted.
Funny enough he didn't found time to tweet about black lives matter.
He also asked people to vote on Thor against Jean on that popularity poll, I see no reason to defend Hickman writing and treatment of Jean.
It's awful going from Taylor to Hickman, that actively wrks to undermine Jean.

Endsong and the sequels were never meant to bring back Jean, just to use phoenix to write bad fanfic. When they saw that the second series underperformed and there was a good pitch for the messiah story, they just dropped it.



Calling negative reviewers of Morrison as illiterates and hateful wont change nobody opinion

I hope Feige is a Jean fan. He seems to have much better taste from what I've heard than Quesada ever did that's for sure.

Wow, Hickman is really gross if he could go around making a joke about a Karen calling the cops on a black man and ask who the X-Men's version of Karen is but wouldn't treat anything about Black Lives Matter. Those are his true colors right there. And then to sabotage the poll so his favorite isn't voted out when clearly he wanted Jean branded as a Karen.

Well now we know why Jean very narrowly lost against Thor in that poll. At the very least we can laugh at how Hickman's fav didn't even last one round in the popularity contest and Jean utterly annihilated her.

Yeah, it's ironic that we're being called out for not liking Morrison's run and being told that we are too negative but certain users are going out of their way to ridicule anyone who wasn't a fan. Yet that's not negativity? That reeks of privilege right there.

[whitecrown]

This is simply not true but you can continue to believe it. I not only read the book as they came on but I participated on this forum, X-fan (later renamed comixfan), superhero hype, Wizard world, the original Jean Grey Message board, and a few more. While it is true the online community is not representative of x-fans as a whole , the books sold really well for that era (of course they weren't selling at the numbers of the early 90s) but they were consistently in the top 10 if not the top 5 selling comics each month. A lot of fans did enjoy the run and on the online forums it was def. the majority. It was a critically acclaimed run and I'd be willing to bet that most fans still appreciate it and the majority appreciated it when it came out (there are always those who didn't enjoy it but they always seemed like a loud vocal minority)

Morrison's run is similar to Hickman's in that some people will not enjoy it because they feel it deviates too much to what they feel is familiar. Hickman's deviates way more than Morrison's because he has added the whole resurrection thing as well as he united all mutants under a new mutant nation. Morrison's run highlighted some specific characters and centered the Xavier school.

I get that some do not appreciate the Grant Morrison era, and that is fine but I will always challenge the untruths that some fans claim about the run. Believe what you will but try to be factual.

At least where this thread is concerned Morrison gave us a great version of Jean Grey and that is something at least we can appreciate even if one is still upset about her death or the relationship drama with Scott and Emma. All I ask is for folks to consider the other parts of the run. Hint: the death and the relationship drama was not the entire run.

I believe what I saw with my own eyes and I'm pretty sure what I saw was posted here in these forums. The X-Men basically died when Morrison came onboard so I'll stick with my Claremont purists and pretend the X-Men Universe ended with Eve of Destruction. At least Jean doesn't wind up dead again that way.

Well it's no coincidence then that I despised Morrison's run and I feel similarly so towards Hickman's run. And frankly, fandoms from the other parts of the Marvel Universe are shocked and horrified at what the X-Men have become under Hickman (not that they cared much for the book's direction the past decade or two). The X-Fandom has alienated itself from the Avengers, Fantastic Four, and Inhuman fandoms and for good reason and I'm frankly on their side because they haven't lost their way like the X-Men have parading around like a bunch of bullies with Apocalypse, Sinister, Emma Frost, Exodus, etc. on their side. The Avengers and the FF have integrity at least.

It's a bit difficult to appreciate Morrison's run when certain posters are flat out saying that anyone who didn't like the run probably isn't an intellectual and essentially lacks brain cells.

[franckd]

This is simply not true but you can continue to believe it. I not only read the book as they came on but I participated on this forum, X-fan (later renamed comixfan), superhero hype, Wizard world, the original Jean Grey Message board, and a few more. While it is true the online community is not representative of x-fans as a whole , the books sold really well for that era (of course they weren't selling at the numbers of the early 90s) but they were consistently in the top 10 if not the top 5 selling comics each month. A lot of fans did enjoy the run and on the online forums it was def. the majority. It was a critically acclaimed run and I'd be willing to bet that most fans still appreciate it and the majority appreciated it when it came out (there are always those who didn't enjoy it but they always seemed like a loud vocal minority)

Morrison's run is similar to Hickman's in that some people will not enjoy it because they feel it deviates too much to what they feel is familiar. Hickman's deviates way more than Morrison's because he has added the whole resurrection thing as well as he united all mutants under a new mutant nation. Morrison's run highlighted some specific characters and centered the Xavier school.

I get that some do not appreciate the Grant Morrison era, and that is fine but I will always challenge the untruths that some fans claim about the run. Believe what you will but try to be factual.

At least where this thread is concerned Morrison gave us a great version of Jean Grey and that is something at least we can appreciate even if one is still upset about her death or the relationship drama with Scott and Emma. All I ask is for folks to consider the other parts of the run. Hint: the death and the relationship drama was not the entire run.

Most of the reviews online for the run, or/and the omnibus are amazing to very good. They perfectly explain why the run was great and reading them gave me that huge smile on my face. Also, I remember that the selling charts were good for New x-Men at the time. And you're right, we need to claim things based on facts and truth.

- X-Men 113 (last issue before Morrison took over) : 103,634 copies sold
- New x-Men 154 (Grant Morrison finale issue) : 117,253 copies sold

I hardly see how Grant Morrison's run changed the sales charts for the worst...

[MechaJeanix]

I believe what I saw with my own eyes and I'm pretty sure what I saw was posted here in these forums. The X-Men basically died when Morrison came onboard so I'll stick with my Claremont purists and pretend the X-Men Universe ended with Eve of Destruction. At least Jean doesn't wind up dead again that way.

Well it's no coincidence then that I despised Morrison's run and I feel similarly so towards Hickman's run. And frankly, fandoms from the other parts of the Marvel Universe are shocked and horrified at what the X-Men have become under Hickman (not that they cared much for the book's direction the past decade or two). The X-Fandom has alienated itself from the Avengers, Fantastic Four, and Inhuman fandoms and for good reason and I'm frankly on their side because they haven't lost their way like the X-Men have parading around like a bunch of bullies with Apocalypse, Sinister, Emma Frost, Exodus, etc. on their side. The Avengers and the FF have integrity at least.

It's a bit difficult to appreciate Morrison's run when certain posters are flat out saying that anyone who didn't like the run probably isn't an intellectual and essentially lacks brain cells.

You do realize that the Whedon run (Astonishing X-men) sold really well so Morrison did not destroy the X-men or contribute to any such decline that you are suggesting. Whedon was also a fan of the Morrison run and wanted to continue under the banner of New X-men but he ended up with Astonishing. He also used the surviving characters (and added Kitty and later Colossus).

Again, you have your opinions but they should be truthful. I don't think we ought to delve into alternative facts here. The Morrison era sold well. The other X-men books sold well (Uncanny and Xtreme, but New X-men sold better). The Morrison era was critically acclaimed and like it or not many fans did love it. Of course there were some who didn't but there is not any evidence that it was a majority of fans. I think there is certainly more hate for it now on forums than it was during the time it came out (but X-fans are notoriously fickle just look at the ever evolving views on Claremont). When Claremont used to post on X-fan (later renamed comixfan) fans were brutal criticizing his writing style. Now I see a lot of Claremont worship online but you didn't see that during the Morrison era (Claremont's writing on the X-men Revolution era was not well received and they brought in Morrison to revamp the X-men). They did keep him around for Xtreme and it was a nice balance for those who didn't like Morrison's X-men take.

[whitecrown]

You do realize that the Whedon run (Astonishing X-men) sold really well so Morrison did not destroy the X-men or contribute to any such decline that you are suggesting. Whedon was also a fan of the Morrison run and wanted to continue under the banner of New X-men but he ended up with Astonishing. He also used the surviving characters (and added Kitty and later Colossus).

Again, you have your opinions but they should be truthful. I don't think we ought to delve into alternative facts here. The Morrison era sold well. The other X-men books sold well (Uncanny and Xtreme, but New X-men sold better). The Morrison era was critically acclaimed and like it or not many fans did love it. Of course there were some who didn't but there is not any evidence that it was a majority of fans. I think there is certainly more hate for it now on forums than it was during the time it came out (but X-fans are notoriously fickle just look at the ever evolving views on Claremont). When Claremont used to post on X-fan (later renamed comixfan) fans were brutal criticizing his writing style. Now I see a lot of Claremont worship online but you didn't see that during the Morrison era (Claremont's writing on the X-men Revolution era was not well received and they brought in Morrison to revamp the X-men). They did keep him around for Xtreme and it was a nice balance for those who didn't like Morrison's X-men take.

I don't appreciate being branded a liar with your alternative facts nonsense. I just pointed out that the X-Men used to be Marvel's biggest book in the 90s and always #1 or about #1 whereas that changed in the 2000s especially when Bendis took over the Avengers. X-Fans never seemed to have gotten over this lol and they're salty as hell. Some X-Men fans do feel that Morrison creatively destroyed the X-Men and it's perfectly fine that you don't feel that way. Nor did I ever say every fan feels that way, I just pointed out that some fans do but you can't seem to take that idea and are incredibly defensive that I've somehow hurt the pride of your precious Morrison's run when clearly I don't have the power to do so.

[MechaJeanix]

Most of the reviews online for the run, or/and the omnibus are amazing to very good. They perfectly explain why the run was great and reading them gave me that huge smile on my face. Also, I remember that the selling charts were good for New x-Men at the time. And you're right, we need to claim things based on facts and truth.

- X-Men 113 (last issue before Morrison took over) : 103,634 copies sold
- New x-Men 154 (Grant Morrison finale issue) : 117,253 copies sold

I hardly see how Grant Morrison's run changed the sales charts for the worst...

I find it amazing when people try to tell us things contrary to what we know to be true, things we experienced. It blows my mind but during online discussions it happens with an outstanding frequency. People have to be careful with bias.

I want to go back to appreciating Jean Grey and even for those who dislike the GM version there are other great versions. I also love X-factor Jean Grey by Simonson. I love Claremont's Jean Grey. I loved the various 90's writers. I loved Bendis' Teen Jean, Dennis Hopeless' version of Teen Jean, Tom Taylor's Jean in X-men Red. We've been spoiled with a lot of talented writers who have shaped the character.

[franckd]

I find it amazing when people try to tell us things contrary to what we know to be true, things we experienced. It blows my mind but during online discussions it happens with an outstanding frequency. People have to be careful with bias.

I want to go back to appreciating Jean Grey and even for those who dislike the GM version there are other great versions. I also love X-factor Jean Grey by Simonson. I love Claremont's Jean Grey. I loved the various 90's writers. I loved Bendis' Teen Jean, Dennis Hopeless' version of Teen Jean, Tom Taylor's Jean in X-men Red. We've been spoiled with a lot of talented writers who have shaped the character.

Exactly. Not only we experienced it, but the truth is that New X-Men sold well. And it didn't sell worst than before. I mean, Lobdell's X-Men 111 (Eve of Destruction) sold 99,712 copies... Those are facts... We can't deny facts.

Anyway, as you said we're here because we all care about and love Jean Grey. That should be the most important thing.

[Strong Girl Daken]

The thing I like about the resurrection protocole, is that basically, it kinda retcons the Phoenix cocoon retcon :
Phoenix Jean (Original CC's run) was Jean. As the force copied her body and soul, like the 5 recreate a body and Xavier transfers its back up memories to it.

Anything that retcons the retcon is good in my book. Morrison did a great job, from this standpoint too.

Jean/Phoenix came up with the prototype resurrection protocols.