Jean Grey: Phoenix/Marvel Girl Appreciation 2020

[franckd]

claremont second run sold as good as Morrison. so Morrison should be a flop too

No it didn't sell as good. CC's sales were good. But Morrison's New X-Men sold more.

[Hulkout42]

Just going to throw this out there, does it really matter in the end? I mean as much as I enjoyed Logan and Ororo, it didn't last once they got it into their heads to kill him and when they resurrected him they "killed" her off. As weird as it was Jean and Bishop didn't last, even weirder still Betsy and Blob didn't last, Emma and Scott didn't last...much to my joy when it ended and now hate its potential return, Jean and Beast didn't last...thank god. Frankly, I am more shocked they left Gambit and Rogue alone when compared to the likes of Kitty and Piotr, Havok and Lorna, Betsy and Warren who also have plenty of history as Jean and whoever she has a history with.

The point is as follows, this is what we have to deal with in the present, some like me don't like it others cheer for it but at the end of it all it like so many of the things currently going on will end when the next reset will come and let's not delude ourselves as I know their people who do believe the current status quo will endure when the signs are showing it won't. Like Utopia, Krakoa will end, that is a fact which as bitter as it is for some is truth, and when it does this whole polyamory or whatever you want to call it is will end and while I don't know what comes next this won't be there most likely much to the joy of some and the anger of others.

That's just my two cents on the matter, it won't last.

[Hulkout42]

But what if it lasts a lot of time?

I didn't wait for jean for coming back after 14 years to be treated with these disrespect and blatant sexism on the story.
They just keep Jean for the same 2 guys that screw over her, when on Marvel universe there are hundreds of male characters.

I understand where you are coming from, I liked the idea of her coming back and that even though the book wasn't the best thing out there they didn't bog her down by making her go back to Summers or Howlett until this came about.

And I also admit I would be less than pleased if after the aforementioned reset this endures and is made a reality akin to what happened in RYV universe, but as much as that could happen we still don't know so all I can say is to focus on something else whether its another book that has nothing to do with this, try to stomach it as I do with things that I find unpleasant and have no control over... or finally drop the book, wait it out and see what happens.

I wish i could offer something more constructive but that's all I got friend.

Personally, If Jean is out of the book I will read this for the Quentin deaths and Domino's eventual wrath being unleashed when she realizes they messed with her head without her permission.
If Jean is still in the and more of this ship then I drop it. Those are my only options for me.

[spirit2011]

I understand where you are coming from, I liked the idea of her coming back and that even though the book wasn't the best thing out there they didn't bog her down by making her go back to Summers or Howlett until this came about.

And I also admit I would be less than pleased if after the aforementioned reset this endures and is made a reality akin to what happened in RYV universe, but as much as that could happen we still don't know so all I can say is to focus on something else whether its another book that has nothing to do with this, try to stomach it as I do with things that I find unpleasant and have no control over... or finally drop the book, wait it out and see what happens.

I wish i could offer something more constructive but that's all I got friend.

Personally, If Jean is out of the book I will read this for the Quentin deaths and Domino's eventual wrath being unleashed when she realizes they messed with her head without her permission.
If Jean is still in the and more of this ship then I drop it. Those are my only options for me.

Red was a really good book, i really liked it when it was coming out. Lots of people criticize the book here, but now it is ok when writers demoted jean from leader and normalize harassment. They can't ever be bothered to write character development.

I can read other books, what tv shows (and I do all of these), but it is like the thought about this keep on my head. For me is hard to deal tha tin 2020 someone thought this was a good story to tell, Bendis and Taylor did so well by keeping Jean single and Leading, then Hickman arrives and crap all over it.


If Jean is out of X-force, I will be out. Maybe get some friend posting scans.

Now if they keep the toxic relationship on it, out but can't help sometimes see the trainwreck since people post scans.

[Tenebrae]

Reminder not to get personal. Talk about the comics not each other. Also you can utilise the ignore function on the site if you wish.

[Kingdom X]

Red was a really good book, i really liked it when it was coming out. Lots of people criticize the book here, but now it is ok when writers demoted jean from leader and normalize harassment. They can't ever be bothered to write character development.

I can read other books, what tv shows (and I do all of these), but it is like the thought about this keep on my head. For me is hard to deal tha tin 2020 someone thought this was a good story to tell, Bendis and Taylor did so well by keeping Jean single and Leading, then Hickman arrives and crap all over it.


If Jean is out of X-force, I will be out. Maybe get some friend posting scans.

Now if they keep the toxic relationship on it, out but can't help sometimes see the trainwreck since people post scans.

They totally should have let Red go on for longer instead of cutting it short for the mess that was Uncanny.

Do you really think this one scene is “normalizing harassment”. Yes Logan’s interactions with Jean written decades ago are problematic. However, in a modern context they resolved their issues and became close friends before Jean died. Clearly no one has written this relationship as toxic for at least 20 years and in the aforementioned scene Logan isn’t even the one who pursues Jean.

The most comparable example I can find is if I went into the Kitty thread and endlessly posted about how she was a racist because she used the n-word in God Loves, Man Kills. Yes, what she did in a comic written decades ago is problematic AF, but under modern writers I couldn’t imagine Kitty using that word and thus I’m not going to hold it against her cause she’s a fictional character.

[franckd]

I'm satisfied of the pairing because Benjamin Percy seems to understand and love the character of Jean Grey.

But I hate how some fanboys (only a very tiny few) are threatening Percy to stop buying the book because of that. You know what, you don't want to buy the book, don't buy it! Live up to your precious "standards" and morality. But don't be some insane harassers (sometimes the same that are offended by the so called Logan's harassment) : it makes you ridiculous, neurotic, unbalanced and toxic. Your "blackmail" and threats are stupid and it makes all the Jean Grey fanbase look bad. You hate the pairing? It's your right. Stop buying the book and move on. And if you're not able the move on and want to ruin other fans enjoyment, do it here. Whine, explain, cry, scream all you want here. But leave the writer alone (and no, I am no Chris Crocker lol)

They totally should have let Red go on for longer instead of cutting it short for the mess that was Uncanny.

Do you really think this one scene is “normalizing harassment”. Yes Logan’s interactions with Jean written decades ago are problematic. However, in a modern context they resolved their issues and became close friends before Jean died. Clearly no one has written this relationship as toxic for at least 20 years and in the aforementioned scene Logan isn’t even the one who pursues Jean.

The most comparable example I can find is if I went into the Kitty thread and endlessly posted about how she was a racist because she used the n-word in God Loves, Man Kills. Yes, what she did in a comic written decades ago is problematic AF, but under modern writers I couldn’t imagine Kitty using that word and thus I’m not going to hold it against her cause she’s a fictional character.

Exactly. To be honest, I don't understand how anyone can hold a grudge against a character because of what a writer did at some point. The character has no life of its own. His voice, his personality, his reaction, are up to the writer of the moment. That's how we get a fiery and passionate Jean with Morrison & Seagle. An intelligent activist (and pacifist) Jean, full of compassion with Taylor... And a boring fainting den mother Jean with some 90's writers...

Holding a grudge against Logan is indeed stupid. As stupid as the allegedly CC's grudge against Scott Summer.

[LoganAlpha30X33]

Well plenty of people hold Alex's call me Alex speech against him and HATE him for it even though it was Remender's view on things and not the characters...and Hank Pym is still a wife beater for one hit that happened like 40 years ago...when other male characters have done worse than he did and gotten away with it...

[franckd]

Well plenty of people hold Alex's call me Alex speech against him and HATE him for it even though it was Remender's view on things and not the characters...and Hank Pym is still a wife beater for one hit that happened like 40 years ago...when other male characters have done worse than he did and gotten away with it...

I was looking at one episode of the Charmed reboot on the CW, and I was shocked of they mix up "empowered female" with "female abuser" : one character was talking to a guy (the male character was a douche, to be honest) and she punched him in the face... Imagine the opposite. A man talking to a "douche" girl, and having him him punching her in the face : we'd have all the feminist boycotting the show, to make it cancelled. And that's why I couldn't watch the show further. One of the female character was an abuser, but no one cares, because she's a girl. It was not about equality, it was about letting the women be the worst men.

[spirit2011]

They totally should have let Red go on for longer instead of cutting it short for the mess that was Uncanny.

Do you really think this one scene is “normalizing harassment”. Yes Logan’s interactions with Jean written decades ago are problematic. However, in a modern context they resolved their issues and became close friends before Jean died. Clearly no one has written this relationship as toxic for at least 20 years and in the aforementioned scene Logan isn’t even the one who pursues Jean.

The most comparable example I can find is if I went into the Kitty thread and endlessly posted about how she was a racist because she used the n-word in God Loves, Man Kills. Yes, what she did in a comic written decades ago is problematic AF, but under modern writers I couldn’t imagine Kitty using that word and thus I’m not going to hold it against her cause she’s a fictional character.

Red going longer was not possible, because Uncanny was preparation for a AU event. And it wouldn't solve the problem.

yes, it is normalizing the wrong behavior. There isn't any modern context that can erase how harmful Logan courtship of Jean.
it still on continuity and it happened.
and later we saw episodes of erratic behavior from Logan, involving even teenagers

Well plenty of people hold Alex's call me Alex speech against him and HATE him for it even though it was Remender's view on things and not the characters...and Hank Pym is still a wife beater for one hit that happened like 40 years ago...when other male characters have done worse than he did and gotten away with it...

Well he still beat his wife, tha tis why they are divorced and janet is paired with other men.
Logan got away because he is much more popular than Pym

[franckd]

Logan got away because he is much more popular than Pym

So how does it feel to be a fan of the writer who wrote him such as an abuser*?

* according to you

[Vishop]

So how does it feel to be a fan of the writer who wrote him such as an abuser*?

* according to you

Not one, not two but three lol.

[Havok83]

Back and see things havent moved on.


I'll try again next week

[Will Evans]

I was looking at one episode of the Charmed reboot on the CW, and I was shocked of they mix up "empowered female" with "female abuser" : one character was talking to a guy (the male character was a douche, to be honest) and she punched him in the face... Imagine the opposite. A man talking to a "douche" girl, and having him him punching her in the face : we'd have all the feminist boycotting the show, to make it cancelled. And that's why I couldn't watch the show further. One of the female character was an abuser, but no one cares, because she's a girl. It was not about equality, it was about letting the women be the worst men.

But if it were a male to another male, would you care?


If it were female to another female, would you care?

If it were an evil villain male to a good female would you care?

If it were an evil villain male to a good male would you care?

[franckd]

Not one, not two but three lol.

Logan is a serial abuser. Shame on you Mr Claremont! Shame, shame, shame!*

* Me being sarcastic here