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  1. #2311
    Mighty Member MechaJeanix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thirteen View Post
    Considering we are amidst an Age of staunchly non-Phoenix Jean (post Resdurection) and consideration of Jean Grey stories that treat her timeline as more than just a preamble to Phoenix Saga and revisitation of same (MCU Jean adaptation)...
    Phoenix stories aside, what are the compelling stories/moments in the JEAN GREY SAGA?
    While the Phoenix is an important component of the character you are correct that it isn't Jean's only story. I enjoy a lot of Jean stories sans Phoenix (the original X-men years, the Marvel Girl mask years (the Roy Thomas/Neal Adams stories were fun). Jean had several good moments in the 90's (an era I've come to appreciate more as I get older): Jean was a valuable member of the Gold Team, her fights with Sabretooth (X-men 28 as well as "Into the redzone"), the proposal to Scott, the Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix, X-cutioner's song, Jean's moments in Fatal Attractions, the Phalanx Covenent, Onslaught, and Operation Zero Tolerance. Jean often played valuable roles and had some decent feats along the way.

    I love the X-factor years from the 80s. There is the frequent relationship drama and there is still some Phoenix involvement in some ways (her denying it, gaining a portion of it and the memories in the Inferno conclusion, using/expelling in Judgement War). I loved that Jean was spirited in the X-factor years (she still had her temper) and her tk powers were useful/valuable in almost every issue she was in. I loved the few quiet moments she had in the run (in some of the annuals). I like it when characters get to reflect and we can get insights into their motivations. I also liked that X-factor Jean had flaws and made mistakes. The 90's version of the character seemed older or at least more mature (more settled).

    Of course there is the short lived X-men Red run which was loved by fans and critics. We see Jean post-phoenix (again) and it is a run that I criticized as it came out (Jean not being aggressive/assertive enough) but I find myself going back to it often. There was a lot to appreciate about the run (Jean's confidence, compassion, power, and her leadership abilities).

    My favorite remains GM's New X-men where I feel that Jean was a perfect blend of omega mutant Jean Grey and Phoenix-Jean Grey. If only the character could have stayed as she was in this run.

    Unrelated to the topic, but going back and re-reading much of the 90's X-men to the present I kind of agree that Jean's omega power should be her telepathy. It seemed like during those years her telepathy was often emphasized over her telekinesis. Another reason I love the X-factor era is because Jean didn't have her tp and had to rely on her tk (my favorite of her two powers). Don't get me wrong I love telepathy but I've always found telekinesis to be more interesting.

  2. #2312
    Mighty Member nightw1ng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by franckd View Post

    Nice. A bit too "manga" for me. And unfortunately, the same "mistake" as usual :
    - The Phoenix chest logo is too big for the green Phoenix suit.
    - The phoenix chest logo is the right size for the dark Phoenix suit, but shouldn't be contained one the black triangle.

    I know it's just details. But in Jean's case, they're important symbolic details, showing that the Phoenix was "small" and contained, and it became huge and free when Jean became Dark Phoenix.
    Oh, I totally know where you're coming from. I also hate when I see the reverse where the green Phoenix suit doesn't have the emblem contained in black. Whether the black around the logo is there or not for the green/dark Phoenix suits are practically a dealbreaker for me, haha. And concerning these statues specifically, the Phoenix emblem that's pinning the sash on her waist should be on her right side, not the left (although that detail for me isn't as major). However, for the green Phoenix suit, I'm more forgiving with the emblem size, since it's varied over the years and also was an indication of where she was on her path to Dark Phoenix.

  3. #2313
    Extraordinary Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by franckd View Post
    The New X-Men suits were mainly team suits, but not only. They were also personalized. For exemple, you can't compare Emma's frost suit to Jean's. Obviously the color is different, but the amount of skin exposed is quite... different. Same applies for Scott and Logan.

    Anyway, thanks for this image. It reminds me how rich Jean's story is.



    Nice. A bit too "manga" for me. And unfortunately, the same "mistake" as usual :
    - The Phoenix chest logo is too big for the green Phoenix suit.
    - The phoenix chest logo is the right size for the dark Phoenix suit, but shouldn't be contained one the black triangle.

    I know it's just details. But in Jean's case, they're important symbolic details, showing that the Phoenix was "small" and contained, and it became huge and free when Jean became Dark Phoenix.
    Yes, I agree with all of this statement.

    Also, I like my Phoenix to look powerful, not as cheesecake. Not a knock t the statue, just my personal preference.

    By the way, very cool avatar, franckd!!

  4. #2314
    Smart & Swift & Violent Kitty&Piotr<3's Avatar
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    I need more Jean comics. I feel like all we ever have to talk about is her costumes and either genuinely or sarcastically applauding Hickman for having her appear without tripping over her own hair or something lol.

    Bring back the solo. Get Percy and Bachalo.
    "Cyclops loves wilted roses because they remind him of dead redheads."
    -Gail

  5. #2315
    Ultimate Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Theres a Jean cameo in the next Excalibur


  6. #2316
    hate cant reach you here Harpsikord's Avatar
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    Everyone keeps acting like the green Phoenix costume having a large emblem is such a big deal or like it doesn't represent canon... why tho? The Phoenix emblem was growing larger even before Jean went Dark Phoenix, and when Jean herself wore the costume it was drawn larger IIRC. Plus it just looks better. It helps break up the costume more, there's a reason it always has the big Phoenix in games.

    "I'll always love you, Jean Grey." "I'll always love you too, Scott Summers." - Scott Summers and Jean Grey

  7. #2317
    Incredible Member franckd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightw1ng View Post
    Oh, I totally know where you're coming from. I also hate when I see the reverse where the green Phoenix suit doesn't have the emblem contained in black. Whether the black around the logo is there or not for the green/dark Phoenix suits are practically a dealbreaker for me, haha. And concerning these statues specifically, the Phoenix emblem that's pinning the sash on her waist should be on her right side, not the left (although that detail for me isn't as major). However, for the green Phoenix suit, I'm more forgiving with the emblem size, since it's varied over the years and also was an indication of where she was on her path to Dark Phoenix.
    Same for me. It's a deal breaker for me too. The green suit without the black triangle around the Phoenix emblem is simply an artistic mistake. It takes aways all the symbolic of one of Jean's most important story. Some people don't give a f... about details, subtlety, metaphors, and just love "under the nose" things. Their losss...

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenixx9 View Post
    Yes, I agree with all of this statement.

    Also, I like my Phoenix to look powerful, not as cheesecake. Not a knock t the statue, just my personal preference.

    By the way, very cool avatar, franckd!!
    Thank you very much !

    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post
    Everyone keeps acting like the green Phoenix costume having a large emblem is such a big deal or like it doesn't represent canon... why tho? The Phoenix emblem was growing larger even before Jean went Dark Phoenix, and when Jean herself wore the costume it was drawn larger IIRC. Plus it just looks better. It helps break up the costume more, there's a reason it always has the big Phoenix in games.
    As I already said a few days ago, canon is that the Phoenix emblem was, at first, very small (Dave Cockrum) and contained in a large black triangle. The beauty of the details, is that when John Byrne took over, he drew it the same size (very small & contained). Then, he started to draw larger and larger, as a symbol of the Phoenix growing inside Jean. It was not only an artistic interpretation, but a symbol, a foreshadowing of things to come. When John Byrne had to draw flashbacks featuring Jean, he used to draw her with a very small emblem : the artist was coherent and loyal to the story.

    The green Phoenix emblem was never as big as the Dark Phoenix emblem. Never. If it was, then the symbolic wouldn't make sense anymore. Maybe it's not a big deal for you, but for some fans like me, details make the difference between "nice" and "perfection".

    Now I confirm : the very large -taking over all her chest - green phoenix emblem is NOT canon. Many artists who didn't care screw it, later, changing canon to their own artistic preferences.

  8. #2318
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    As i worked on this more i wanted Rachel and Cable to look more like teens compared to Scott and Jean

    Don't let anyone else hold the candle that lights the way to your future because only you can sustain the flame.

  9. #2319
    Ultimate Member Wiccan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post
    Everyone keeps acting like the green Phoenix costume having a large emblem is such a big deal or like it doesn't represent canon... why tho? The Phoenix emblem was growing larger even before Jean went Dark Phoenix, and when Jean herself wore the costume it was drawn larger IIRC. Plus it just looks better. It helps break up the costume more, there's a reason it always has the big Phoenix in games.
    I actually think it looks better with it smaller. Makes it look more... Idk, classy, minimalist. I don't mind it being a bit bigger than originally, but it just shouldn't be as big as DP. I don't like for the only difference between the costumes to be green vs red.

  10. #2320
    Mighty Member Thirteen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Theres a Jean cameo in the next Excalibur

    CongratulaXions! When your image is ICONIC enough to be burned in Masked Marvel effigy next to Charles Xavier, instead of Magneto, Apocalypse, Cyclops, Mystique, Frost, etc available as Krakoa Era symbols...you have ARRIVED!

  11. #2321
    Mighty Member houndsofluv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thirteen View Post
    When your image is ICONIC enough to be burned in Masked Marvel effigy next to Charles Xavier, instead of Magneto, Apocalypse, Cyclops, Mystique, Frost, etc available as Krakoa Era symbols...you have ARRIVED!
    this constant effigy-ing makes me wonder if the regressions that've been commented on and related to the return of the marvel girl costume are intentional .. Charles brought her back as his ideal First Lady, more symbol than human .. we dont know enough about the story for this to be more than crazed and mostly baseless spec lol just a thought that won't leave me alone

  12. #2322
    Incredible Member franckd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thirteen View Post
    CongratulaXions! When your image is ICONIC enough to be burned in Masked Marvel effigy next to Charles Xavier, instead of Magneto, Apocalypse, Cyclops, Mystique, Frost, etc available as Krakoa Era symbols...you have ARRIVED!
    Or it's just a sign : it's time to burn that outdated outfit.

  13. #2323
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    Quote Originally Posted by franckd View Post
    Or it's just a sign : it's time to burn that outdated outfit.
    Why not both? She’s arrived, so it’s time to burn that outdated outfit.

  14. #2324
    Spectacular Member johnnysv75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by houndsofluv View Post
    this constant effigy-ing makes me wonder if the regressions that've been commented on and related to the return of the marvel girl costume are intentional .. Charles brought her back as his ideal First Lady, more symbol than human .. we dont know enough about the story for this to be more than crazed and mostly baseless spec lol just a thought that won't leave me alone
    I haven’t given up hope that Hickman’s regression of Jean is intentional. He is such a talented writer and he is building an amazing world, I would hate that he truly sees her this way. BUT. The way she is written in X-Force is so different from how Hickman writes her. In X-Force she is fierce and powerful. If there is a good explanation for how she can be what seems like two different people I am all for it. I would love a story about Jean embracing her full potential. Even though regression of a female character just to build her up again seems misogynistic. It is 2020 now, let a woman be powerful without it having to be an issue.

  15. #2325
    Smart & Swift & Violent Kitty&Piotr<3's Avatar
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    I think we saw the extent of Hickman's estimation of Jean in House of X and X-Men #1. Nothing to be done about it but keep reading X-Force instead.
    "Cyclops loves wilted roses because they remind him of dead redheads."
    -Gail

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