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  1. #4471
    Spectacular Member andreikes's Avatar
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    I guess that in the Grant Morrison phase, Jean was not afraid of losing control. But I'd like to see more dialogues like in the magazine Jean's Resurrection, between the Phoenix and the Jean.
    But I'd also like to see both as one. And no, jean and the '' entity ''

  2. #4472
    hate cant reach you here Harpsikord's Avatar
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    From what I understood of the Morrison run Jean wasn't afraid of losing control because she couldn't lose control. At that point she was meant to have complete control over the Force on the Earth; after all a White Phoenix of the Crown was the ideal Phoenix host.

    In general I'm just tired of stories where powerful women lose control just because, Dark Phoenix Saga included. I'd like new and interesting Phoenix stories.

    "I'll always love you, Jean Grey." "I'll always love you too, Scott Summers." - Scott Summers and Jean Grey

  3. #4473
    Extraordinary Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post
    From what I understood of the Morrison run Jean wasn't afraid of losing control because she couldn't lose control. At that point she was meant to have complete control over the Force on the Earth; after all a White Phoenix of the Crown was the ideal Phoenix host.

    In general I'm just tired of stories where powerful women lose control just because, Dark Phoenix Saga included. I'd like new and interesting Phoenix stories.
    Yes, I as well. lol!

  4. #4474
    Spectacular Member johnnysv75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post
    I'd argue that Jean on her own as an omega level psi, mutant, and etc with everything that we've seen from her should be as powerful as those cosmic level heroes already without the Phoenix Force or at the very least be damn close - let her, as Green Phoenix, represent her own power and that's the default state. And then include an Avatar State kind of deal where Jean can tap into the higher power as White Phoenix (with her and the PF in balance with one another) and then the Red / Dark Phoenix being when the Phoenix is in control.
    I love this!!! Would love to see this in the comics.

  5. #4475
    hate cant reach you here Harpsikord's Avatar
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    What kind of stories would you guys like to see from Jean, with the Phoenix or otherwise?

    I've always envisioned a really cool, sweeping space epic like the ones in the classic days of X-Men that centered around a Jean who was revived and the host of the Phoenix again, or just Phoenix, and having to deal with the Shi'Ar and the fallout of not only the Trial of Jean Grey but also the fallout to End of Grey's. Jean would absolutely not be happy about what happened and the Shi'Ar were never really put into their place for what they did to her and to her family, so I'd love to see that come to a head.

    Instead we have her and her family vacationing on Chandilar. Annoying.

    "I'll always love you, Jean Grey." "I'll always love you too, Scott Summers." - Scott Summers and Jean Grey

  6. #4476
    Mighty Member MechaJeanix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post
    From what I understood of the Morrison run Jean wasn't afraid of losing control because she couldn't lose control. At that point she was meant to have complete control over the Force on the Earth; after all a White Phoenix of the Crown was the ideal Phoenix host.

    In general I'm just tired of stories where powerful women lose control just because, Dark Phoenix Saga included. I'd like new and interesting Phoenix stories.
    Agreed. For me personally Morrison's Jean/Phoenix story eclipsed Claremont's Dark Phoenix saga, but I'm probably in the extreme minority where that is concerned. I do love both stories of course.. and Claremont's is a classic and he's the one that started it all with the Phoenix. Dark Phoenix is tired and played out at this point because they keep going to it and I hate the narrative that Jean always loses controls, can't control her emotions or powers, and that the Phoenix is inherently destructive and/or evil. In Avengers vs X-men they forgot all the times Jean was in control as Phoenix.

    I had an idea the other day about how great and/or scary it would be to have a Hickman-style data page on the Phoenix... especially one that goes into the various levels/colors and what they mean or even a hierarchy of hosts or differentiate between a host and an avatar, etc. He could do a lot with it, and I do think Hickman could find a way to salvage the phoenix but he may not want to and the Phoenix may still be with the Avengers office.

    I love Jean as Phoenix, always have but I'm also fine with her without it.

  7. #4477
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post

    I'd argue that Jean on her own as an omega level psi, mutant, and etc with everything that we've seen from her should be as powerful as those cosmic level heroes already without the Phoenix Force or at the very least be damn close - let her, as Green Phoenix, represent her own power and that's the default state. And then include an Avatar State kind of deal where Jean can tap into the higher power as White Phoenix (with her and the PF in balance with one another) and then the Red / Dark Phoenix being when the Phoenix is in control.
    I agree with this.

    The issue with what the Phoenix has become now is that a host is more powerful than the rest of the team combined by several orders of magnitude - it's hard to do an interesting story with that setup since you need to use an obvious plot device to prevent the mega-powered character from taking over or prevent the more normal ones from being wiped out. A team of Punisher, Paladin, Silver Sable, Black Cat, and Thor (with the OdinPower or whatever they are calling it now) isn't going to be able to escape Deus ex Machina or Plot Induced Stupidity for very long.

    Having Jean be the team's heavy hitter isn't problematic - every team outside of identical siblings (or clones) has someone who is the most powerful member, it can be Jean as easily as anyone else (more easily in many cases - even without the Phoenix she has the ability to both take punishment and dish it out up close or at range in a manner few other characters can approach, plus the other options she brings to the table). The Phoenix originally was merely the latter, a power boost to make her the team's big gun - no one else on the team at the time could both take and dish punishment like she could without closing to punching distance. The others who could reach out and touch someone were all mere humans defensively.
    Last edited by Gray Lensman; 08-03-2020 at 04:13 PM.
    "Theory: The Phoenix doesn't corrupt the characters, it corrupts the authors." Gambit, King of Thieves

  8. #4478
    Extraordinary Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post
    What kind of stories would you guys like to see from Jean, with the Phoenix or otherwise?

    I've always envisioned a really cool, sweeping space epic like the ones in the classic days of X-Men that centered around a Jean who was revived and the host of the Phoenix again, or just Phoenix, and having to deal with the Shi'Ar and the fallout of not only the Trial of Jean Grey but also the fallout to End of Grey's. Jean would absolutely not be happy about what happened and the Shi'Ar were never really put into their place for what they did to her and to her family, so I'd love to see that come to a head.

    Instead we have her and her family vacationing on Chandilar. Annoying.
    I always imagined Jean as Phoenix having space adventures, in new galaxies, new aliens, new heroes, etc. Settings and boundaries that really call for Phoenix level power.

  9. #4479
    Spectacular Member Omega_DCD's Avatar
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    I'd love to see more creativity with Jean in the use of her powers. Morrison Jean was getting there, with the TK sensitivity, and actually using it as an extra sense...but I don't like that he made it seem like a specifically "Phoenix" thing.

    Like, even Marvel Boy/Justice was able to do this in the mid 90s. He had some thugs in a TK grip and told them not to lie because he'd be able to feel their heartbeat through the TK sheath.

    In NXM, she could tell the metal of the bullet fired at Xavier was alien. In UXM, she could tell spilt blood was mutant blood.

    Other energy manipulators are able to "see/feel" through their powers, Jean should be no exception.

    Ironically, she was already doing these kinds of feats in the original 60s days...she would routinely feel her way through walls and doors to manipulate locking mechanisms..and could telekinetically probe through a suitcase to detect a particular item was inside...or even feel an area had been rigged with bombs.

  10. #4480
    Extraordinary Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega_DCD View Post
    I'd love to see more creativity with Jean in the use of her powers. Morrison Jean was getting there, with the TK sensitivity, and actually using it as an extra sense...but I don't like that he made it seem like a specifically "Phoenix" thing.

    Like, even Marvel Boy/Justice was able to do this in the mid 90s. He had some thugs in a TK grip and told them not to lie because he'd be able to feel their heartbeat through the TK sheath.

    In NXM, she could tell the metal of the bullet fired at Xavier was alien. In UXM, she could tell spilt blood was mutant blood.

    Other energy manipulators are able to "see/feel" through their powers, Jean should be no exception.

    Ironically, she was already doing these kinds of feats in the original 60s days...she would routinely feel her way through walls and doors to manipulate locking mechanisms..and could telekinetically probe through a suitcase to detect a particular item was inside...or even feel an area had been rigged with bombs.
    All true, I remember these examples from way back then.

    I would like more exploration of these aspects as well, but more so just with Jean than any of all the other TKs around today.

  11. #4481
    Spectacular Member andreikes's Avatar
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    Can Jean "hold" the kitty pryde when she is intangible?

  12. #4482
    Incredible Member Micabe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andreikes View Post
    Can Jean "hold" the kitty pryde when she is intangible?
    She can hold her mind...

  13. #4483
    Incredible Member Cruelrain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andreikes View Post
    Can Jean "hold" the kitty pryde when she is intangible?
    Psylocke once warned Kitty that she can stop her phasing ability with her Telekinesis, i believe Jean could do the same.

    Unless it has something to do with Betsy's psychic knife.

  14. #4484
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andreikes View Post
    Can Jean "hold" the kitty pryde when she is intangible?
    Kitty's powers can disrupt Jean's if she makes contact




    Of course Kitty would have to be able to touch her which the TK can take care of. She passes her atom molecules through the spaces between objects and Jean can control molecules on a molecular level, thus theoretically being able to hold Kitty
    Last edited by Havok83; 08-03-2020 at 08:08 PM.

  15. #4485
    hate cant reach you here Harpsikord's Avatar
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    I'd like to see Jean's psychometry make a return. We saw it in Extermination and Rachel just used it in X-Factor, but it's something Jean can do that's rarely been seen - and as we saw with Adrienne Frost in Gen X, it could be REALLY powerful.

    "I'll always love you, Jean Grey." "I'll always love you too, Scott Summers." - Scott Summers and Jean Grey

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