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  1. #4531
    Incredible Member franckd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    The Phoenix was in the hands of the Avengers office. It seemed they only allowed it to be used as a means to bring Jean back but the X-line didnt have access to it bc Aaron was using it extensively in his books
    Oh , yes, Aaron and his Phoenix envy... I almost forgot it.

  2. #4532
    hate cant reach you here Harpsikord's Avatar
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    Actually, wasn't Mark Paniccia's idea for Phoenix Resurrection a sweeping space epic that revolved around the Phoenix and Jean returning as Phoenix? It was Rosenberg's idea to sever Jean and the Phoenix and because of the way the story ended, they kept it like that. And let the Avengers have the entity for now.

    "I'll always love you, Jean Grey." "I'll always love you too, Scott Summers." - Scott Summers and Jean Grey

  3. #4533
    Mighty Member MechaJeanix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by franckd View Post
    I agree.

    But who asked the Phoenix (name, suit, imagery, powers) to be served from Jean. it's a genuine question. And I'd love to have an answer. Was it all Rosenberg? Or was it editorially mandated?
    Didn't Rosenberg say he pitched the idea of a breakup story between Jean and Phoenix for Phoenix Resurrection and the powers at be liked it and they went with it? JDW wasn't an editor with the X-men at the time, it was Mark P. JDW was editing the Star Wars line at the time but was later brought on to work with Hickman I believe.

    JDW has said on twitter before that he likes Jean as Phoenix but he also likes her as just Jean Grey. I think he has wrote on twitter before that he liked it when Jean's codename was Phoenix. I think the decision to put Jean in the Marvel Girl look was from Hickman. Pepe Larraz had said so last year on his Instagram when someone asked why Jean wasn't in her X-men Red look for House of X.

  4. #4534
    Incredible Member franckd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post
    Actually, wasn't Mark Paniccia's idea for Phoenix Resurrection a sweeping space epic that revolved around the Phoenix and Jean returning as Phoenix? It was Rosenberg's idea to sever Jean and the Phoenix and because of the way the story ended, they kept it like that. And let the Avengers have the entity for now.
    This is an other reason for me to disliked Rosenberg's work. Oh my, the man even wrote a letter to explain how much he loved and understood the character, during the Resurrection mini. He couldn't be more wrong. Having the Phoenix as a narcissist pervert stalker, and Jean in a toxic relation, was so dumb. And it denied all the character's progression during Morrison's run.

    Quote Originally Posted by MechaJeanix View Post
    Didn't Rosenberg say he pitched the idea of a breakup story between Jean and Phoenix for Phoenix Resurrection and the powers at be liked it and they went with it? JDW wasn't an editor with the X-men at the time, it was Mark P. JDW was editing the Star Wars line at the time but was later brought on to work with Hickman I believe.

    JDW has said on twitter before that he likes Jean as Phoenix but he also likes her as just Jean Grey. I think he has wrote on twitter before that he liked it when Jean's codename was Phoenix. I think the decision to put Jean in the Marvel Girl look was from Hickman. Pepe Larraz had said so last year on his Instagram when someone asked why Jean wasn't in her X-men Red look for House of X.
    Thanks. So Rosenberg started it all...
    Last edited by franckd; 08-04-2020 at 05:28 PM.

  5. #4535
    Mighty Member MechaJeanix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post
    Actually, wasn't Mark Paniccia's idea for Phoenix Resurrection a sweeping space epic that revolved around the Phoenix and Jean returning as Phoenix? It was Rosenberg's idea to sever Jean and the Phoenix and because of the way the story ended, they kept it like that. And let the Avengers have the entity for now.
    It would have been nice to have one last big Phoenix story for Jean before they separated her from it. She needed that big hero moment or something meaningful with the power but yet they went with the Phoenix as a creep abuser and went with a "break-up"' story instead. Oh well.

    I was so let down by that final issue of Phoenix Resurrection. Rosenberg just got it all wrong imo but like I said before he didn't go with the Claremont or Morrison version of Jean and Phoenix. He went with the Bryne and Kurt B. version (the Phoenix is bad and destructive and manipulates Jean).

  6. #4536
    hate cant reach you here Harpsikord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by franckd View Post
    This is an other reason for me to disliked Rosenberg's work. Oh my, the man even wrote a letter to explain how much he loved and understood the character, during the Resurrection mini. He couldn't be more wrong. Having the Phoenix as a narcissist pervert stalker, and Jean in a toxic relation, was so dumb. And it denied all the character's progression during Morrison's run.
    There's a damn good reason that Rosenberg's pitch for X-Men Red wasn't picked up. Panic clearly understood the character more than Rosenberg did, since he was the one that didn't allow them to run with the idea of Jean sitting in the backseat of her own return vehicle and wallow around in depression and just... wanting to die. Which absolutely does not fit the character, not even how she's portrayed in Rosenberg's own mini. It didn't work so they didn't do it.

    And thank god they didn't. I still think X-Men Red is the best X-Men book of the last decade or so.

    "I'll always love you, Jean Grey." "I'll always love you too, Scott Summers." - Scott Summers and Jean Grey

  7. #4537
    Incredible Member franckd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post
    There's a damn good reason that Rosenberg's pitch for X-Men Red wasn't picked up. Panic clearly understood the character more than Rosenberg did, since he was the one that didn't allow them to run with the idea of Jean sitting in the backseat of her own return vehicle and wallow around in depression and just... wanting to die. Which absolutely does not fit the character, not even how she's portrayed in Rosenberg's own mini. It didn't work so they didn't do it.

    And thank god they didn't. I still think X-Men Red is the best X-Men book of the last decade or so.
    Thank God we had Tom Taylor instead of Rosenberg. Whatever he claims, he really didn't get Jean.

  8. #4538
    Ultimate Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post
    Actually, wasn't Mark Paniccia's idea for Phoenix Resurrection a sweeping space epic that revolved around the Phoenix and Jean returning as Phoenix? It was Rosenberg's idea to sever Jean and the Phoenix and because of the way the story ended, they kept it like that. And let the Avengers have the entity for now.
    Yes thats true and a cosmic space epic is what Jean deserved. Rosenberg didnt want to do that

  9. #4539
    hate cant reach you here Harpsikord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Yes thats true and a cosmic space epic is what Jean deserved. Rosenberg didnt want to do that
    It's absolutely what Jean deserved. She should've come back with a bang, and instead we got a whimper. After all that cool build up, too.

    "I'll always love you, Jean Grey." "I'll always love you too, Scott Summers." - Scott Summers and Jean Grey

  10. #4540
    Incredible Member franckd's Avatar
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    Yes, Jean deserved a big, epic space story. Not that "waitress breaking up from a toxic relation" story... After being dead for 14 years, Rosenberg killed her a little bit again.

    When I think about it, the reasons for Jean to reject the Phoenix were lame. Jean wanted to stop those cycles of death and rebirth, so she ended her relation with the firebird. Now we have the resurrection protocols, and she already died and was brought back twice on Krakoa. How ironic.
    Last edited by franckd; 08-04-2020 at 05:58 PM.

  11. #4541
    Amazing Member andreikes's Avatar
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    I would think it was cool to have a Jean story with the memories of the teenage Jean. I don't know, she seeing other points, evolving too ...

  12. #4542
    hate cant reach you here Harpsikord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andreikes View Post
    I would think it was cool to have a Jean story with the memories of the teenage Jean. I don't know, she seeing other points, evolving too ...
    That's another thing that I wish weren't dropped. Jean learned a lot from her time in the present that isn't really touched on because Jean's evolution into her grown self as teen Jean technically matched who Jean became, except maybe a little less aggressive. I loved Taylor's take but I would've liked to see Jean readopt that aggressive persona from her teenage self, and especially the pink form. The pink form - or at least the ambient psychic vampirism - is such a cool ability I'd love to see more of even if it isn't the physical attributes of it.

    Instead Marvel are treating the O5 like their past selves never came to the present apart from that singular issue of Champions during War of the Realms. It sucks.

    "I'll always love you, Jean Grey." "I'll always love you too, Scott Summers." - Scott Summers and Jean Grey

  13. #4543
    Ultimate Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post
    That's another thing that I wish weren't dropped. Jean learned a lot from her time in the present that isn't really touched on because Jean's evolution into her grown self as teen Jean technically matched who Jean became, except maybe a little less aggressive. I loved Taylor's take but I would've liked to see Jean readopt that aggressive persona from her teenage self, and especially the pink form. The pink form - or at least the ambient psychic vampirism - is such a cool ability I'd love to see more of even if it isn't the physical attributes of it.

    Instead Marvel are treating the O5 like their past selves never came to the present apart from that singular issue of Champions during War of the Realms. It sucks.
    Bobby called Jean out on "outing" him as a kid in Winter's End


  14. #4544
    Incredible Member franckd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post
    That's another thing that I wish weren't dropped. Jean learned a lot from her time in the present that isn't really touched on because Jean's evolution into her grown self as teen Jean technically matched who Jean became, except maybe a little less aggressive. I loved Taylor's take but I would've liked to see Jean readopt that aggressive persona from her teenage self, and especially the pink form. The pink form - or at least the ambient psychic vampirism - is such a cool ability I'd love to see more of even if it isn't the physical attributes of it.

    Instead Marvel are treating the O5 like their past selves never came to the present apart from that singular issue of Champions during War of the Realms. It sucks.
    Sometimes, It makes it difficult to care for stories in the long term. It's like nothing has consequences. Why would we get so invested? If anything can be erased so easily. Teen Jean had a lot of development. And It's like it never happened. But good for me, as I always said since she appeared : I never cared about Jeen. Because I knew it was a bone to fans, a toy for Bendis, and that ultimately it would not matter. Marvel didn't fool me this time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Bobby called Jean out on "outing" him as a kid in Winter's End

    Thanks. At least a writers who remembers.

  15. #4545
    hate cant reach you here Harpsikord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Bobby called Jean out on "outing" him as a kid in Winter's End

    I remember this, but I don't agree with it because that isn't what happened. Jean talked to Bobby privately about it. They could've come to the decision to keep it to themselves together, but Bobby chose to come out. It was on his own terms.

    "I'll always love you, Jean Grey." "I'll always love you too, Scott Summers." - Scott Summers and Jean Grey

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