Jean Grey: Phoenix/Marvel Girl Appreciation 2020

[spirit2011]

But X-force isn't being handled by Hickman, I mean I agree he does great worldbuilding but he also handles individuals rather well I mean look at Moira, Destiny, Xavier, Lenssher or Mystique. Under his banner, he has done great with them IMO.

But in X-force, that whole Jean/Logan thing just didn't get developed it was just there with no real build-up to it and frankly I didn't care for it, but that may just be me since I was done with the Summers/Grey/Howlett triangle ages ago and wanted nothing to do with it.

TBH I've just stopped caring about Jean and her utter lack of development.

I think Jean discovering Beast lied to her and endagered Krakoa was really good. The rescue on Terra Verde was pretty good too.
it wasn't fully awful

But yeah the romantic life was a disaster and really took my joy from this issue. I always wanted a modern romance for Jean. Hickman and Percy just screwed up with badly written romance and OOC.

My only wish was that Jean dropped out of X-force and Tom started to write her. But I know it won't happen since Taylor already said that he wouldn't put Jean on a romance. better no romance, than a badly written romance that sucks joy.
Taylor unfortunaly won't write her ever again

You also felt that Jean Grey was afraid of the U-Men in New X-Men, and yet you were 100% wrong. Anyway, using the falling down sales to prove your point was biased yesterday, and still is today. You love Claremont runs, yet his sales for his three latest X-men runs (Revolution, X-Treme, Reloaded) never stopped falling down too...

Claremont is not a modern writer, and his last projects weren't flagships. And the last time they put him on a flagship he sold more than Morrison and Hickman, that people love to worship.
I have no doubt he could do really well in sales for flagship x-men book

[superjosh]

Speaking of AOA Jean and Logan, I got the Marvel Legends AOA Jean Grey and Nate Gray the other day. I also got Morph. I still lack Weapon X (Wolverine). The AOA Jean figure looks really good. My partner and brother were annoyed that in all these figures Jean's hair is kind of reddish-brown instead of deep red but I love all the figures so far. I don't mind the more realistic red hair.

here's a review from my fav toy site:
http://marveltoynews.com/x-men-marve...review-photos/

It's kind of nice to read an expert's opinion. But mostly I just like the toy news on that site haha.

I wish Marvel Legends would do more follow-up sets. This one was pretty cohesive compared to a lot of other sets so it would be cool cool if they did more AoA characters.

[franckd]

Claremont is not a modern writer, and his last projects weren't flagships. And the last time they put him on a flagship he sold more than Morrison and Hickman, that people love to worship.
I have no doubt he could do really well in sales for flagship x-men book

First, I mentioned Revolution and Reloaded. Were they flagships or not??? So don't change the narrative because it's convenient to you.
Also, about Hickman's sales : the last time CC was on a flag book, was in 2004, so sure, comparing the industry then and now is like comparing the industry in 1990 with 2006.... That's biased, again.
And you maybe say it as many time you want, but last CC's flagship was reloaded. He sold 112.076 copies for Uncanny and 107.134 for X-men (his firsts reloaded issues) I hardly see how he sold more than Morrison first issue (144.835 copies) lol

One year later, CC's reloaded book were selling around 80.000 copies
One year after his first issue, Morrison was still selling around 110.000 copies

I know that you love to twist reality, so it's important to show you facts.

Anyway, it's always "nice" to see it's always the same people who turn an appreciation thread into a Morrison and Hickman bashing.

[superjosh]

First, I mentioned Revolution and Reloaded. Were they flagships or not??? So don't change the narrative because it's convenient to you.
Also, about Hickman's sales : the last time CC was on a flag book, was in 2004, so sure, comparing the industry then and now is like comparing the industry in 1990 with 2006.... That's biased, again.
And you maybe say it as many time you want, but last CC's flagship was reloaded. He sold 112.076 copies for Uncanny and 107.134 for X-men (his firsts reloaded issues) I hardly see how he sold more than Morrison first issue (144.835 copies) lol

One year later, CC's reloaded book were selling around 80.000 copies
One year after his first issue, Morrison was still selling around 110.000 copies

I know that you love to twist reality, so it's important to show you facts.

Anyway, it's always "nice" to see it's always the same people who turn an appreciation thread into a Morrison and Hickman bashing.

Thanks for the numbers!

Also, it's worth noting that Jean and Logan's flirtation started with CC's epic first run. He started it and came back to it over and over and over again. But you know, even after 40+ years of character developing, it still came out of nowhere.

[franckd]

Thanks for the numbers!

Also, it's worth noting that Jean and Logan's flirtation started with CC's epic first run. He started it and came back to it over and over and over again. But you know, even after 40+ years of character developing, it still came out of nowhere.

You're welcome!

I don't see that way, and I hope you don't mind if I disagree. In my own life, if there is shared attraction, desire, it might take 1 day or 10 years, but If I end up having sex with that person, it's a surprise for no-one.

What kind of built up do I need? Restaurant? Flowers? ;-)

If Jean was suddenly sleeping with Forge or Quentin I would be shocked or surprised. But Logan...

[superjosh]

You're welcome!

I don't see that way, and I hope you don't mind if I disagree. In my own life, if there is shared attraction, desire, it might take 1 day or 10 years, but If I end up having sex with that person, it's a surprise for no-one.

What kind of built up do I need? Restaurant? Flowers? ;-)

If Jean was suddenly sleeping with Forge or Quentin I would be shocked or surprised. But Logan...

I was being sarcastic lol

[franckd]

I was being sarcastic lol

Sorry, I didn't pay attention enough
But you're absolutely right, it came from nowhere lol

Seriously, if CC was writing the flagship too, I'm quite sure he'd pair Jean & Logan too. Like he did with X-Men Forever. And there was no built up.

[superjosh]

However, since we're talking about other lovers, I wouldn't mind if the endgame for this open relationship with Scott (I don't think it's polyamory yet) would be for Jean to realize she needs to ditch these men that have been holding her back. I think even spirit2011 would agree with that!

It was interesting to see Jean with Bishop in the Age of X-Man world. It honestly felt pretty organic to me. It was refreshing that it was someone that was completely removed from the Summers/Grey drama. And poor Bishop... never getting a relationship because he's just always portrayed as the cold/tough black man caricature. Has Bishop ever had a love interest? I can only think of Deathbird, but that was dropped. Bishop and Jubilee. Sigh... two 90s POC X-Men never getting any love.

[franckd]

However, since we're talking about other lovers, I wouldn't mind if the endgame for this open relationship with Scott (I don't think it's polyamory yet) would be for Jean to realize she needs to ditch these men that have been holding her back. I think even spirit2011 would agree with that!

It was interesting to see Jean with Bishop in the Age of X-Man world. It honestly felt pretty organic to me. It was refreshing that it was someone that was completely removed from the Summers/Grey drama. And poor Bishop... never getting a relationship because he's just always portrayed as the cold/tough black man caricature. Has Bishop ever had a love interest? I can only think of Deathbird, but that was dropped. Bishop and Jubilee. Sigh... two 90s POC X-Men never getting any love.

I don't mind Jean being with Scott, Logan, both or none to be honest. I'm very happy that she's doing Logan now, but I would not cry if they had to stop their "benefits"...
I'm not a shipper, so I don't care more than this. As long as Jean remains strong and independent, she can bang whoever she feels too.

I have zero opinion about Jean/Bishop because I did not read Age Of X-Man (did you like this arc?)

[superjosh]

I don't mind Jean being with Scott, Logan, both or none to be honest. I'm very happy that she's doing Logan now, but I would not cry if they had to stop their "benefits"...
I'm not a shipper, so I don't care more than this. As long as Jean remains strong and independent, she can bang whoever she feels too.

I have zero opinion about Jean/Bishop because I did not read Age Of X-Man (did you like this arc?)

I love the way the Logan and Jean scene was written, drawn, and paced, so it was really enjoyable. But other than that, I don't have any investment one way or another. I just appreciate the sex positive writing making it into the mainstream.

Age of X-Man on it's own was interesting, but it came from and ended with a terrible story arc. Like one of the worst arcs in a while. I don't even know what that was.

[lowfyr]

You're welcome!

I don't see that way, and I hope you don't mind if I disagree. In my own life, if there is shared attraction, desire, it might take 1 day or 10 years, but If I end up having sex with that person, it's a surprise for no-one.

What kind of built up do I need? Restaurant? Flowers? ;-)

If Jean was suddenly sleeping with Forge or Quentin I would be shocked or surprised. But Logan...

True. The difference is that they solved the Jean-Scott-Logan triangle with why not all of them. And if Emma is in that too what do we call it then^^?

And I must say I am surprised that they went that far. I thought only smaller titles like Secret Six could get away with this and even that was in the last issue.

[Jack The Tripper]

I hope Spirit can just walk away from this now and let others enjoy talking about Jean in X-Force! No one's gonna change their minds, so might as well stop the discourse!

All in all for me, this issue was a great return to X-Comics following the covid delay! Percy smashed it, Cassara smashed it, Guru smashed it, and Jean smashed it. I loved her use of powers, and her characterisation. And I personally think her and Logan were handled brilliantly. I think we should also keep in mind that Wolverine's creepy moments are only now considered creepy - back then it was a "cool" character trait. I think from the 90s onwards Wolverine and Jean's interactions have been a lot less creepy and more subtle (as consciously done so by the writers with the changing times), so I do not look at it as the "stalker getting the girl". He is a fictional character who was a product of his time, and he has been changed thus.

[Steel Inquisitor]

I think we should also keep in mind that Wolverine's creepy moments are only now considered creepy - back then it was a "cool" character trait. I think from the 90s onwards Wolverine and Jean's interactions have been a lot less creepy and more subtle (as consciously done so by the writers with the changing times), so I do not look at it as the "stalker getting the girl". He is a fictional character who was a product of his time, and he has been changed thus.

They are creepy then but now more women are reading comics and they have more of a voice to inform the media. This is why many, many things in the past are seen more in a bad light now. This is why media makes progress and why Wolverine improved significantly over time. Characters being fiction aren't a reason to not disagree with them when they do something bad, these characters are role models and power fantasies to their fans. And not every character in those time periods was a creepy stalker, in those comics Jean absolutely loathed when he did things like that and occasionally she'd call him out on it. His romance was only his head for years before Jean showed some affection but it was never an actual "love triangle" - Jean and Scott had the romantic connections to each other. Wolverine was just a jealous outsider.

[Wiccan]

I actually hadn't read the issue, just seen the spoilers. Now that I did, I feel so fed. We got Jean calling out Hank's bs, Jean using her powers interestingly and getting **** done(and saying so!), and the Jean/Logan moment was not at all gratuitous but actually some nice character moments for them.

I do wonder how things are gonna go now though. She says she's quitting X-Force, but we've seen her on another cover... Plus Joshua seemed to imply "no" when asking if they're done with Jean. This issue would be a worthy send-off if this was it(and she's gonna be on something else to be announced, as some are speculating...) though.

[Hulkout42]

I hope Spirit can just walk away from this now and let others enjoy talking about Jean in X-Force! No one's gonna change their minds, so might as well stop the discourse!

All in all for me, this issue was a great return to X-Comics following the covid delay! Percy smashed it, Cassara smashed it, Guru smashed it, and Jean smashed it. I loved her use of powers, and her characterisation. And I personally think her and Logan were handled brilliantly. I think we should also keep in mind that Wolverine's creepy moments are only now considered creepy - back then it was a "cool" character trait. I think from the 90s onwards Wolverine and Jean's interactions have been a lot less creepy and more subtle (as consciously done so by the writers with the changing times), so I do not look at it as the "stalker getting the girl". He is a fictional character who was a product of his time, and he has been changed thus.

That's a bit harsh don't you think? So they have a dissenting opinion, so what? It happens, it's natural. What harm is it causing?