Jean Grey: Phoenix/Marvel Girl Appreciation 2020

[WallStreeter]

Accusing someone of sexism and misogyny is a serious charge. If you cannot do anything with the complaint, you don’t need to make it.

You’re actually damaging the prospects of people doing anything about real instances of sexism and misogyny in the media and yes that has severely hurt X-women. Directors Bryan Singer and Brett Ratner, both of whom marginalized and trivialized women characters in the X-Men, turned out to be sex offenders.

And Marvel had a big internal problem with that. Brian Woods was also let go due sexual harassment.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

To be fair, Brian Wood was actually harassing someone. In this case, we're talking about a writer who is squeamish about a particular female character coming off very powerful.

[WallStreeter]

To be fair, Brian Wood was actually harassing someone. In this case, we're talking about a writer who is squeamish about a particular female character coming off very powerful.

Singer and Ratner did way more than harass, and they too liked to diminish female characters. There’s a pattern here.

These companies internally had a frat boy culture. So it’s a matter of what do you expect unless there are cultural changes in the corporate level.

Claremont’s strong female character development came about when he had Louise Simonson and Ann Nocentinas editors. Marvel went backwards and the X-office has not had female editors ever since.

In that since I don’t blame Hickman at all, I blame the corporate structure of all men that lets him do this.

[baxer]

This trash invalidated years of story and iconography just because the writer thinks Jean should only ever be about Laser Boy.

He even had some kind of issue with the idea of her leading a team.

And Hix ain't much better.

I had the impression that Rosenberg wanted to Jean try new things, but now you say that he didn't want Jean to lead a team...I'm really in doubt what he wanted to do with Jean.

I also thought Phoenix Ressurrection was heavily editorial influenced so phoenix would be away from Jean, so we could get Phoenix with new hosts

[SiegePerilous02]

And yes the portrayal of women in media is an important real world problem.

It is.

However, the X-books not having Jean be the center of attention 24/7 is not, and writing a petition about it is hilariously inappropriate.

[MechaJeanix]

Ryan stegman posted this



it is a crime that she will have to se this dress on King in Black

I'm intrigued about the X-men's role in King in Black. I might check some of it out. I love the X-men line up we've seen on the covers: Cyke, Jean, Storm, Wolverine, Magneto... and I think Nightcrawler. Maybr Prof X too.

[baxer]

Singer and Ratner did way more than harass, and they too liked to diminish female characters. There’s a pattern here.

These companies internally had a frat boy culture. So it’s a matter of what do you expect unless there are cultural changes in the corporate level.

Claremont’s strong female character development came about when he had Louise Simonson and Ann Nocentinas editors. Marvel went backwards and the X-office has not had female editors ever since.

In that since I don’t blame Hickman at all, I blame the corporate structure of all men that lets him do this.

X-office has a assistant editors that is a woman, but other 3 are men.

Nocenti and Louise also became writers, Louise colaborated with Claremont on x-factor/inferno

[Marvelboy1974]

[QUOTE=baxer;5251827]Ryan stegman posted this



As much as I’ve been bxxtching about the MG costume, I’m not mad at this. Her body looks womanly and powerful. I actually like it and can’t wait to see it in color. I just wish colorists would make it gold instead of yellow.

[WallStreeter]

It is.

However, the X-books not having Jean be the center of attention 24/7 is not, and writing a petition about it is hilariously inappropriate.

Wonder Woman was depowered in DC comics. Gloria Steinem, the famous feminist, lead protesters into DC Comics Lobby.

DC comics gave in and reported Wonder Woman.

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood...m-wonder-woman

Steinem and those other Wonder Woman fans were woman enough to take things seriously and not hide behind fake profiles. They successfully lobbied for change instead of saying it’s not serious when someone says why you don’t do something productive instead of endless trolling on a message forum.

[WallStreeter]

What a shame Steinem apparently never heard of Phoenix/Jean Grey. Had DC kept Wonder Woman delivered we probably wouldn’t have a Wonder Woman movie today.

[Exodus]

But feel free to continue to making excuses for cowardice.
If you’re unwilling or unable to do something about the problem, just give up and let those who enjoy Hickman’s portrayal of Jean (I’m not one of them). Just move on.

not quite sure where the discussion went here. Sexism is a structural problem, I agree. Representation in popular media is one important aspect of it, I agree. People discussing it on a message board or on twitter has merit (I'm sure some people here also are planning a queer-feminist, anti-racist revolution as another side project for the weekend ;-)). Destroying the patriarchy and starting a revolution would be very much necessary and a beautiful thing to do but this necessity does not delegitimize that people discussing comic book characters here and if or if not the most recent representation of a female comicbook character called Jean Grey has misogynistic elements to it.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

Ryan stegman posted this



it is a crime that she will have to se this dress on King in Black

Looks good! And I am tentatively excited for King In Black. He's not an X-writer obviously, but Cates might be inclined to actually let Jean do something interesting. Maybe she'll even use her downgraded TK.

[baxer]

If there is a lack of agency/regression with Jean as Marvel Girl, I'm wondering if it is deliberately meant to be bad. First scene we see her in is when she's arriving in Krakoa with broccoli girl and we have her and Xavier smiling at each other. But the scene has been commented on as having ominous vibe on Xavier's end. I think he even called her "child" when he communicated with her in HoX #4

Could he be trying to keep Jean under control in some way? It wouldn't be the first time. And it's looking more and more likely that the QC as a whole is a bad idea and things might blow up in Charles and Eric's faces, and now Jean has left her seat. While I think the ultimate resolution will focus more on Scott, Jean ascending back to Phoenix and gaining more positive influence over how Krakoa is run while Xavier and Magneto are left out in the cold would be pretty neat.

I saw this theory being discussed back them. But there wasn't hints supporting it

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

A year plus into this era with no indications about it, I don't think it's a personality suppression plot within the story, but more so outside of it. Plus, if you ask others, the Hickman take on Jean is totally how our damselly non-combatant TK-less housewife has always been written, so she is probably not being influenced by Xavier or anything.

[SiegePerilous02]

I saw this theory being discussed back them. But there wasn't hints supporting it

A year plus into this era with no indications about it, I don't think it's a personality suppression plot within the story, but more so outside of it. Plus, if you ask others, the Hickman take on Jean is totally how our damselly non-combatant TK-less housewife has always been written, so she is probably not being influenced by Xavier or anything.

Others are usually not as quick to say how much Jean sucks or downplay her moments in this era as much as her own fans apparently

There could be more hints either coming up or moments that becomes hints in hindsight depending on whatever else comes out. Again, this is serialized storytelling that is taking its time, just because we are not getting answers RIGHT NOW doesn't mean there won't be. Being left to wonder and speculate is part of the fun of the ride, it's just not as easy as it is to say "Hickman hates Jean and no good will come of us this." So this theory could pan out, or some other thing entirely could happen. Nobody can see the future and there really isn't much of a pattern to accurately predict it despite what some may claim.