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  1. #4396
    Spectacular Member Omega_DCD's Avatar
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    To be fair, Jean had just been punched by Colossus before she says all of this ;-)

    But still...it's a partial retcon...one that still states that the force needs a host to act through. And Jean was bonded, not replaced. The retcon makes it a separate entity, a sentience on its own, and for a long time removes so much character development that was Jean's during that time...growth, personal relationships, etc.

  2. #4397
    hate cant reach you here Harpsikord's Avatar
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    There is way too much John Byrne in this thread right now for me to be comfortable. Ultimately he was a raging sexist who hated that Jean became powerful and so when he was added to the X-Men, pushed way too hard for her to go bad because clearly a woman wouldn't be able to handle that kind of power. If it hadn't been for Byrne, Phoenix never would've went dark and she probably never would have been killed off, and Jean wouldn't be known for this cycle of life/death/rebirth. In fact, we probably would have just gotten years of stories featuring Phoenix as the X-Men's power house. Instead we just got what was effectively an unfortunate revolving door and, admittedly, some of the best stories about Jean were about her coming to terms with herself post-Phoenix (X-Factor) or accepting it's legacy (Kelly/Seagle's X-Men, Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix, Morrison's run) but it still left Jean with, well, a reputation.

    But anyway, moving on from Byrne and bad things, have an art dump of some badass moments:






    "I'll always love you, Jean Grey." "I'll always love you too, Scott Summers." - Scott Summers and Jean Grey

  3. #4398
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Byrne's Dark Phoenix was...everything GLORIOUS!!!
    Dark Phoenix by Byrne 01.jpg
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Krakoa, FOREVER!!!

  4. #4399
    Spectacular Member andreikes's Avatar
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    Of these events that will happen, Jean little / almost nothing appears in the preview. =/

  5. #4400
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Yupp. I don't think she plays a major role in XoS. A secondary role in the X-Force and X-Men chapters and Marauders 13 but nothing significant to the main plot.
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Krakoa, FOREVER!!!

  6. #4401
    Mighty Member MechaJeanix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by franckd View Post
    Claremont was kinda forced to write Phoenix as a symbiote entity in #137... And this was just one panel. Originally, Jean would have never say that, and never killed herslef till the editor forced CC & Byrne to change the story and end Jean. CC surely wrote this "symbiotic" line to already redeem Jean for the D'baris.

    But during all the Phoenix and dark Phoenix Saga, Phoenix was written as Jean's ultimate potential. Unfortunately not having the maturity to handle it. She created psychic limits, and the Hellfire broke them.

    It was never about an evil entity taking her place. It was Jean's struggle all along.
    It is too bad that the original story has been mangled so much. I hate it when in recaps they say that Phoenix impersonated Jean or masqueraded as her. Even by the retcon and what was set up in Inferno and stories right afterward, Jean and Phoenix merged. Phoenix copied Jean's mind and body (sounds similar to the resurrection protocols doesn't it). And the Phoenix took a portion of Jean's consciousness and it was that part of Jean that even willed the Phoenix to commit suicide in Uncanny 137. It was the part that woke Maddie and it was the part that ultimately returned to Jean in inferno.

    As much as I detest the retcon, Inferno made it ok for me because Jean regained the portion of herself within the Phoenix/Jean merger and she regained the memories. I know there were times they still acted like they were separate and other times not so much which makes it a confusing mess, but really Inferno in addition to the Classic X-men backstories about Jean/Phoenix essentially "fixed" the retcon that removed Jean from the Phoenix & Dark Phoenix sagas.

    Other writers including Morrison really cemented the connection between Jean and Phoenix by making her Phoenix once again. Too bad, the creators (much like the fandom) are split with those that like Jean as Phoenix and those that do not like her being Phoenix. I wish we could have the best of both worlds and Jean could be portrayed as she was in Morrison's run... where she's a very powerful tp/tk but sometimes taps into the phoenix power (but not powered up to a cosmic level).

  7. #4402
    Mighty Member MechaJeanix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    Yupp. I don't think she plays a major role in XoS. A secondary role in the X-Force and X-Men chapters and Marauders 13 but nothing significant to the main plot.
    She's on the cover to a Cable issue along with Cable and Cyclops. I do hope she has a role to play. A secondary role isn't bad as long as the character has some good moments. This is a huge event with a very large cast. We know Apocalypse will have a large role. Doug will have a big part to play as probably will Betsy.

    My guess is that Jean will play a support character to her close family/friends like Scott, Cable, and maybe Storm.

  8. #4403

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post
    There is way too much John Byrne in this thread right now for me to be comfortable. Ultimately he was a raging sexist who hated that Jean became powerful and so when he was added to the X-Men, pushed way too hard for her to go bad because clearly a woman wouldn't be able to handle that kind of power. If it hadn't been for Byrne, Phoenix never would've went dark and she probably never would have been killed off, and Jean wouldn't be known for this cycle of life/death/rebirth. In fact, we probably would have just gotten years of stories featuring Phoenix as the X-Men's power house. Instead we just got what was effectively an unfortunate revolving door and, admittedly, some of the best stories about Jean were about her coming to terms with herself post-Phoenix (X-Factor) or accepting it's legacy (Kelly/Seagle's X-Men, Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix, Morrison's run) but it still left Jean with, well, a reputation.

    But anyway, moving on from Byrne and bad things, have an art dump of some badass moments:





    One of Jean's finest moments, indeed.
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  9. #4404
    Extraordinary Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post
    There is way too much John Byrne in this thread right now for me to be comfortable. Ultimately he was a raging sexist who hated that Jean became powerful and so when he was added to the X-Men, pushed way too hard for her to go bad because clearly a woman wouldn't be able to handle that kind of power. If it hadn't been for Byrne, Phoenix never would've went dark and she probably never would have been killed off, and Jean wouldn't be known for this cycle of life/death/rebirth. In fact, we probably would have just gotten years of stories featuring Phoenix as the X-Men's power house. Instead we just got what was effectively an unfortunate revolving door and, admittedly, some of the best stories about Jean were about her coming to terms with herself post-Phoenix (X-Factor) or accepting it's legacy (Kelly/Seagle's X-Men, Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix, Morrison's run) but it still left Jean with, well, a reputation.

    But anyway, moving on from Byrne and bad things, have an art dump of some badass moments:





    This is true. For years I have often wondered how different the stories would have been with Jean in them! So sad that about a total of 20 years went by with no Jean Grey Phoenix in them(1980-1985, 2003-2018)

  10. #4405
    Spectacular Member Gridde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post
    There is way too much John Byrne in this thread right now for me to be comfortable. Ultimately he was a raging sexist who hated that Jean became powerful and so when he was added to the X-Men, pushed way too hard for her to go bad because clearly a woman wouldn't be able to handle that kind of power. If it hadn't been for Byrne, Phoenix never would've went dark and she probably never would have been killed off, and Jean wouldn't be known for this cycle of life/death/rebirth. In fact, we probably would have just gotten years of stories featuring Phoenix as the X-Men's power house. Instead we just got what was effectively an unfortunate revolving door and, admittedly, some of the best stories about Jean were about her coming to terms with herself post-Phoenix (X-Factor) or accepting it's legacy (Kelly/Seagle's X-Men, Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix, Morrison's run) but it still left Jean with, well, a reputation.

    But anyway, moving on from Byrne and bad things, have an art dump of some badass moments:

    You're right and the base motivation behind the original story might be shitty, but that arc is one of the most famous in all comics and has given Jean a permanent spot in comic history. At least her life-death cycle actually added to the character and fit with her phoenix theme; there are other comic characters who die and resurrect a lot but far more awkwardly.

    Unrelated, where is the Rachel v Jean pic from? Assuming X-Men, but which issue?
    People say nothing is impossible, but I do nothing every day.

  11. #4406
    Spectacular Member Conor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gridde View Post
    You're right and the base motivation behind the original story might be shitty, but that arc is one of the most famous in all comics and has given Jean a permanent spot in comic history. At least her life-death cycle actually added to the character and fit with her phoenix theme; there are other comic characters who die and resurrect a lot but far more awkwardly.

    Unrelated, where is the Rachel v Jean pic from? Assuming X-Men, but which issue?
    The fight scene between Jean and Rachel is from Taylor’s X-Men Red, issue 8 or 9ish I think! It’s definitely towards the latter part of that 12 issue run.

  12. #4407
    hate cant reach you here Harpsikord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gridde View Post
    You're right and the base motivation behind the original story might be shitty, but that arc is one of the most famous in all comics and has given Jean a permanent spot in comic history. At least her life-death cycle actually added to the character and fit with her phoenix theme; there are other comic characters who die and resurrect a lot but far more awkwardly.

    Unrelated, where is the Rachel v Jean pic from? Assuming X-Men, but which issue?
    I actually don't mind the life-death cycle. It's the rest of the baggage that comes with the Dark Phoenix Saga - which, undoubtedly, was a fantastic story in 1980 but absolutely does not hold up in 2019 the way that it's written. Jean has practically no agency in it, and what agency she does have is choosing to kill herself when she could have just as easily instead have overcome the darkness of the Phoenix. But that rant is for another time.

    The Jean v Rachel fight is from X-Men Red #9! It doesn't last very long because Rachel is fighting Cassandra Nova's indoctrination and holding back.

    "I'll always love you, Jean Grey." "I'll always love you too, Scott Summers." - Scott Summers and Jean Grey

  13. #4408

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    The current creatives should lean into Jean's life-death cycle as a prototype of the resurrection protocols. Give credit where credit is due: the phoenix force.

  14. #4409
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Very few stories (if any at all) of the early golden age of X-Men actually hold up by 2020's "woke" sensibilities.
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Krakoa, FOREVER!!!

  15. #4410
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    Last year's Winter's End one-shot had Bobby suggest Dark Phoenix was Jean claiming her femininity, arguably a modern or woke-ish take. Maybe that would be interesting to explore in a story. Though we have had variations of Jean is holding back her powers and finally unleashes them stories.

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