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  1. #4606
    Ultimate Member Wiccan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by franckd View Post
    When Morrison killed Magneto, was it misogynistic too?

    1990 : misogynist = someone who hates women.
    2020 : misogynist = someone who says or does something I don't like.
    Jean's death can be considered misogynistic because its main purpose was to clear the room for Scemma. Now that Scott has a new girlfriend the old one can go.

  2. #4607
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    Jean's death can be considered misogynistic because its main purpose was to clear the room for Scemma. Now that Scott has a new girlfriend the old one can go.
    To add to franckd's point, the same could be said about Warren. He was killed off which cleared the way for Psylocke and Fantomex

  3. #4608
    Incredible Member franckd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    Jean's death can be considered misogynistic because its main purpose was to clear the room for Scemma. Now that Scott has a new girlfriend the old one can go.
    I don't say it can't be considered as misogynistic. I say we can't claim it was the reason why Jean was killed, as an absolute truth.
    As Morrison said during an interview, his plan for Jean was to turn her in a literal true Goddess, as seen in HCT. We may agree or not with that. The fact is he both killed Jean and Magneto. The other fact is Marvel retconed Magneto immediately and left Jean dead for 14 years...

  4. #4609
    hate cant reach you here Harpsikord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by franckd View Post
    I don't say it can't be considered as misogynistic. I say we can't claim it was the reason why Jean was killed, as an absolute truth.
    As Morrison said during an interview, his plan for Jean was to turn her in a literal true Goddess, as seen in HCT. We may agree or not with that. The fact is he both killed Jean and Magneto. The other fact is Marvel retconed Magneto immediately and left Jean dead for 14 years...
    Which, again, was because of editorial and Claremont. If anyone can be considered misogynistic it isn't Morrison, it's the editors at the time.

    "I'll always love you, Jean Grey." "I'll always love you too, Scott Summers." - Scott Summers and Jean Grey

  5. #4610
    Incredible Member franckd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post
    Which, again, was because of editorial and Claremont. If anyone can be considered misogynistic it isn't Morrison, it's the editors at the time.
    Especially as Morrison left the door opened with the Phoenix egg in the dark side of the moon. Marvel could use it to bring Jean as soon as they wanted. When Morrison left, he said during an interview that he couldn't wait to see how much it would take for Marvel to bring back the characters he killed.

  6. #4611
    Incredible Member Micabe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by franckd View Post
    When Morrison killed Magneto, was it misogynistic too?

    No, That was Morrison being petty. Note... Jean Grey, was offering compassion and forgiveness to Xorneto when Morrison suddenly flip the script (seeking Marvel comic book glory) and revealed that (when the helmet came off) it was truly Magneto who EMP'd her -- forgetting all together that he allowed Jean Grey to survive a dip in the greatest electromagnetic source in the Sol galaxy... The Sun!



    It was Logan who did the righteous deed!

    Ironically, Jean came her death (again in the the same unlikely fashion) during HOX/DOX and only to be reborn in House Of X... So, in what way was that misogynistic?

    Last edited by Micabe; 08-09-2020 at 02:23 PM. Reason: Edited for clarity.

  7. #4612
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Micabe View Post
    No, That was Morrison being petty. Note... Jean Grey, was offering compassion and forgiveness to Xorneto when Morrison suddenly flip the script (seeking Marvel comic book glory) and revealed that (when the helmet came off) it was truly Magneto who EMP'd her -- forgetting all together that he allowed Jean Grey to survive a dip in the greatest electromagnetic source in the Sol galaxy... The Sun!
    Morrison didnt forget anything (he wrote it). Jean didnt survive that. She died. She was resurrected by Phoenix Force. That was a big plot point which he expounded on in HCT

  8. #4613
    hate cant reach you here Harpsikord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Morrison didnt forget anything (he wrote it). Jean didnt survive that. She died. She was resurrected by Phoenix Force. That was a big plot point which he expounded on in HCT
    Not only that but he literally had Jean telegraphing that she was on borrowed time. The Phoenix had Phoenix work that it wanted Jean to do and she didn't know how long that it, as a cosmic force, was going to allow her to live to clean up Magneto's mess.

    And again - there have been reports that have said Morrison wanted to bring Jean back as his endgame but wasn't allowed due to editorial, just as some people have said he never wanted to do that. We're never going to be able to know for sure and assuming one way or the other is just going to have us running around and around in circles.

    One thing we do know, for sure, is that even though Jean died in Planet X she finished in Here Comes Tomorrow as what was effectively a goddess. Hickman had her act like a scared little girl killed by a sentinel of all things and then proceeded to treat her like a housewife after the fact, when she really only died in House of X in the first place just so he could display the Resurrection Protocols. House of X treated Jean as little more than a mean's to an end. She was the entire centerpiece of Morrison's run.

    "I'll always love you, Jean Grey." "I'll always love you too, Scott Summers." - Scott Summers and Jean Grey

  9. #4614
    Incredible Member Micabe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Morrison didnt forget anything (he wrote it). Jean didnt survive that. She died. She was resurrected by Phoenix Force. That was a big plot point which he expounded on in HCT
    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post
    Not only that but he literally had Jean telegraphing that she was on borrowed time. The Phoenix had Phoenix work that it wanted Jean to do and she didn't know how long that it, as a cosmic force, was going to allow her to live to clean up Magneto's mess.
    You BOTH have my fanboy/girl respect! That was a cool ass rebuttal BTW... HCT sucked IMHO

  10. #4615
    Incredible Member franckd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post
    Not only that but he literally had Jean telegraphing that she was on borrowed time. The Phoenix had Phoenix work that it wanted Jean to do and she didn't know how long that it, as a cosmic force, was going to allow her to live to clean up Magneto's mess.

    And again - there have been reports that have said Morrison wanted to bring Jean back as his endgame but wasn't allowed due to editorial, just as some people have said he never wanted to do that. We're never going to be able to know for sure and assuming one way or the other is just going to have us running around and around in circles.

    One thing we do know, for sure, is that even though Jean died in Planet X she finished in Here Comes Tomorrow as what was effectively a goddess. Hickman had her act like a scared little girl killed by a sentinel of all things and then proceeded to treat her like a housewife after the fact, when she really only died in House of X in the first place just so he could display the Resurrection Protocols. House of X treated Jean as little more than a mean's to an end. She was the entire centerpiece of Morrison's run.
    I can't agree more with you. Morrison's Jean was a vital piece of his run. The silent issue is just a exemple of Jean's importance. She was literally the star of the issue : If you read Morrison's direction for the silent issue (that he wrote for Quietly) he says that the lighthouse/tower (where Xavier's mind is "prisoner") is destroyed, and then we see a star. And the Star is Jean.

    And now, with Dauterman (a huge Jean fan) saying this run was his favorite, and drawing an hommage to that silent issue, is just an other proof of that.

  11. #4616
    Spectacular Member andreikes's Avatar
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    Hickman treats Jean like a teenager (Insecurities) in a woman's body. Morrison treated her totally differently ... But in the end, Jean from Morrison's universe had the connection to be the phoenix and return, sometime from the ashes. And the egg plot could be used at any time. I just didn't understand if it's a fetish to kill Jean (morisson and hickman), leave the way clear for Emma or Marvel didn't like her concept.

  12. #4617
    Incredible Member franckd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andreikes View Post
    Hickman treats Jean like a teenager (Insecurities) in a woman's body. Morrison treated her totally differently ... But in the end, Jean from Morrison's universe had the connection to be the phoenix and return, sometime from the ashes. And the egg plot could be used at any time. I just didn't understand if it's a fetish to kill Jean (morisson and hickman), leave the way clear for Emma or Marvel didn't like her concept.
    I agree that I had hard time to recognize Jean, under Hickman.
    But to be fair with Jonathan Hickman, he also killed Monet, Warren, Kurt, Scott, Logan and so on ;-)

  13. #4618
    hate cant reach you here Harpsikord's Avatar
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    I don't think it was a fetish to kill Jean for Morrison. Keep in mind that up to that point, Jean Grey as Jean Grey had never died before; the Phoenix as Jean had, but Jean hadn't. And then he only killed her twice with the idea that, rightfully, a hero called Phoenix should be able to come back from the dead.

    It was Pak that killed the Phoenix in Jean's body multiple times during Endsong, and editorial that decided that mini ended with Jean dying even though she just ascended to the white hot room.

    "I'll always love you, Jean Grey." "I'll always love you too, Scott Summers." - Scott Summers and Jean Grey

  14. #4619
    Ultimate Member Wiccan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    To add to franckd's point, the same could be said about Warren. He was killed off which cleared the way for Psylocke and Fantomex
    Yeah that's reverse sexism you're making some points.

  15. #4620
    Spectacular Member johnnysv75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by franckd View Post
    I agree that I had hard time to recognize Jean, under Hickman.
    But to be fair with Jonathan Hickman, he also killed Monet, Warren, Kurt, Scott, Logan and so on ;-)
    Yes, but the others weren’t scared children when they died, like Jean was. Jean, who has challenged death so many times for the ones she loves.

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