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  1. #1576
    Astonishing Member Soulsword323's Avatar
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    I too get irritated with CC's bitterness towards Jean's return, and him bringing it up often. That being said, he did set the foundation for a well written Jean, and pushed her to the front of the franchise. He fleshed out her personality, and expanded her power.

  2. #1577
    Smart & Swift & Violent Kitty&Piotr<3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    of course we had this discussion before, but Morrison writing was just ok. if he liked Jean he wouldn't fridged her, have the love of her life cheated on her and have naother woman take her place. This isn't even debatable
    editors could do that, but also editors wouldn't need to bring jean back if Morrison hadn't killed her. Everyone know how comics are mysoginistic and Morrison helped it and never apologized
    I think he liked her. He just liked Cyclops a lot more.
    "Cyclops loves wilted roses because they remind him of dead redheads."
    -Gail

  3. #1578
    BANNED spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post
    I think he liked her. He just liked Cyclops a lot more.
    Well he fridged Jean in favor os cyclops story. I don't think he liked her at all

    Quote Originally Posted by MechaJeanix View Post
    You are making a lot of assertions that are simply not true. Jean and Scott are essentially soap opera couples and no fictional couple is sacred and most get broken up or has their significant other cheat on them. Writers come up with all sorts of ways to break couples up - in movies, television series, books, short stories, etc. It is very common and if I am honest at the time it upset me too because I have always loved Scott and Jean together but I found I also love them apart. They stand up as individual characters and no not have to be tied together.
    Sue and Richards are together for ages, so you are wrong here. There is sacred couples, but this isn't about it.
    This is about bring toxicity to the characters
    It doesn't bother me that it happened, but how it happened it was trash.
    I know some were upset about Scott cheating on Emma and Emma taking Jean's place as Scott's love interest and lead team telepath, but what is done is done. As I continue to bring up reducing Jean's story in Morrison's run to just the affair or her death erases all the other stuff I continue to bring up (Jean's initial fight with Cassandra, her teasing with Beast, her moment with Wolverine, her showing compassion for Xavier, the psychic rescue, saving Xavier's life, showing care for Beak, protecting the students, manifesting Phoenix, interaction with Fantomex, finding Dust, fighting Emma, going to rescue Wolverine in Space, confronting Xorn, awaking in the future, becoming White Phoenix, etc. There were so many great moments but unfortunately some fans can't see beyond some relationship drama.
    If writers wrote more than relationship drama fans would see more than it. or better Morrison choose to define his run about relationship drama and fridging of jean, no one can put this on readers

    The only other time Jean has had this level focus in recent years is X-men Red (if we count teen Jean then the Bendis run and Jean Grey solo). Like it or not or want to admit it or not, Morrison's Jean Grey is one of the best if not the best version of the character. She has yet to be treated this well in the current era even though I think Percy will go down as a great Jean Grey writer in time. I also think Hickman has her voice down.
    i admit it is good, but I can easily name other writers that did a better job

    In story, I agree that Jean and Scott had an epic love and I do think writers did their best to diminish it (especially when Pak and Bendis wrote that Scott had chose Emma over Jean or the times writers had Scott say that Jean wasn't good for him or that Emma was who he needed, etc. That was unfortunate but again nothing we can do about it, but it doesn't erase all the Jean moments in Morrison's run - her focus, her voice, or how Morrison had other characters describe Jean. I felt he got who the character was and he didn't make her weak or a background character. If anything he elevated Jean even in death because he gave her a mission or cosmic destiny with the Phoenix (that writers like Rosenberg essentially crapped all over). Sacrifice is a big part of Jean's character and Morrison definitely played into that with his final moments with the character.
    Sacrifice because the destiny of earth depends on Scott sleeping with a woman is laughable bad. when readers gonna admit it was awful?
    Yeah writers all diminish Jean character and role on x-men because of Morrison.
    I guess what I'm saying is that there are a lot of elements of the Jean Grey character to appreciate and focus on that aren't about her being a love interest or who the character is in love with. Sexuality and romance are important elements of life but they are not everything. There are so much more to all of us than who we date, marry, whatever with.
    You talk this as it was readers fault.
    It wasn't readers that killed Jean for a romantic story, it was Morrison decision, so it is his fault
    Last edited by spirit2011; 03-26-2020 at 11:06 AM.

  4. #1579
    Mighty Member MechaJeanix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    Well he fridged Jean in favor os cyclops story. I don't think he liked her at all



    Sue and Richards are together for ages, so you are wrong here. There is sacred couples, but this isn't about it.
    This is about bring toxicity to the characters
    It doesn't bother me that it happened, but how it happened it was trash.

    If writers wrote more than relationship drama fans would see more than it. or better Morrison choose to define his run about relationship drama and fridging of jean, no one can put this on readers


    i admit it is good, but I can easily name other writers that did a better job


    Sacrifice because the destiny of earth depends on Scott sleeping with a woman is laughable bad. when readers gonna admit it was awful?
    Yeah writers all diminish Jean character and role on x-men because of Morrison.

    You talk this as it was readers fault.
    It wasn't readers that killed Jean for a romantic story, it was Morrison decision, so it is his fault
    You do realize citing Sue and Reed that they are just one couple and most soap opera couples do break up, cheat, etc. Sue and Reed are anecdotal evidence and may not be representative of fictional couples as a whole. You would need way more examples to adequately argue against my points. They are only one example out of many which means if we were doing actual research on fictional soap opera couples they wouldn't be very meaningful. Though they may not have cheated on each other I think they have had some drama over the years. Their relationship is not perfect by any means.

    I also don't believe some shipper fans aren't upset that Scott and Jean broke up but are more upset about how it happened either. I think, and this is no disrespect to anyone but some people just become obsessed with fictional and nonfictional pairings to a unhealthy degree. I guess people buy into the mythology around "love" and what they think it means (because of how media often portrays romantic love).

    Again some of you try to reduce Jean's story in Morrison's run to only the parts you dislike and that is unfortunate that you can't analyze the work in a more meaningful way.

    At any rate, back to Claremont. X-twitter folks get all bent out of shape because Claremont has negative things to say about the X-men these days. I'm like, so what? He has a very specific idea about the X-men and the characters (he wanted them to grow up and get older, he probably would have kept killing them and changing the rosters, etc). Claremont wanted Jean to stay dead because it was his story and he hated the retcon. He used both Inferno and the classic back up stories to weaken the retcon. For Claremont, both Jean and Rachel were Phoenix. He wrote it for them and he would likely never had made it into a cosmic std. He did use Jean well when he came back to the X-men and in his X-men the End series. His work in Revolution wasn't good but I liked his Jean. His Xtreme was ok but at the time I disliked it because I compared it to Morrison who is a superior writer. Claremont's Reload run was fun but had some strange issues (Dino Rachel need I say more..) Claremont's contribution to the X-men cannot be denied, and he did some good things (created some very strong powerful women). One of his weaker area's imo is the never ending thought balloons where the characters self doubt runs amok (he did this for so many characters and a lot of their thoughts (his dialogue) were pretty much the same. At the end of his initial run he seemed to run out of steam and plus he was better when he was working with good editors and creative artists who could help guide him.

    His version of Jean is my second favorite after the Grant Morrison version. I also like Taylor's, Bendis', and Dennis Hopeless' version of Jean Grey.
    Last edited by MechaJeanix; 03-26-2020 at 01:14 PM.

  5. #1580
    Ultimate Member Wiccan's Avatar
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    Claremont's opinion about Jean's return is bad because of how it brings up the topic to discussion again and generates repetitive clickbait articles. But he doesn't have any negative feelings about Jean herself.

  6. #1581

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    Quote Originally Posted by houndsofluv View Post
    in wolverine she just gets stabbed like in the preview.
    we see her a lil later growing again in one of the eggs and Logan tries to apologize and Scott does not have it at all, he just walks off. interesting moment for Jott I guess but not really for jean.

    Well, that's a little disappointing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Del torro View Post
    He first killed Quentin. We can take that one as a surprise attack then while he was still stabbing Quentin, domino started shooting him and and he got to her and stabbed her to death.
    Meanwhile, Jean was just standing there watching all this happen. Then for some reason, instead of using telekinesis on him, she jumps on him and gets stabbed, then she remembers her powers and blasts him away.
    I need to see this just for confirmation's sake.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3;4906370[B
    ]It's to play up how dangerous Wolverine is. The one negative to the character is that writers like to do stories about Wolverine killing all the X-Men at once as if the majority of the X-Men aren't long-range bombers that would one-shot him before he was within reach.[/B]

    Like physically how? He's 5'2 with melee powers.

    It's almost as bad as the drooling the writers do over Cyclops in that regard.



    I'm fine with it. It's in her identity. Just as long as they don't actually wipe her from the board.
    The only thing I dislike about Logan's character is when writers take this "trait" overboard, Wolverine should absolutely be incredibly dangerous but at this point. Any X-man put in a position where Wolverine is their enemy whether through manipulation or mind-control and they DON'T put him down immediately, they deserve their fates. Wolverine is predominantly a close quarters fighter and several of the X-men can employ long-range tactics how the hell do you simply allow a man with metal claws near you?

    I'll never understand how he murdered ALL the X-men in OML?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post
    God, I keep forgetting about how Rosenberg wrote Jean as depressed and wanting to die again. On paper maybe it looks meta but it just feels... disingenuous. Jean should be the type of person to embrace her life and live it to the fullest BECAUSE she knows, very well, how short it can be and how quickly it can be cut off.
    Rosenberg is an all around disappointment for me, given what he said about her character in the back of one of the issue then to see what he wrote and moreover the direction he wanted to take her. I honestly can't believe how you can research a character like Jean then decide the best thing to do for her is detaching her from any and everything that makes her Jean.

  7. #1582
    Ultimate Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Just be glad he turned down X-men Red bc initially Marvel created that book for him

  8. #1583

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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Just be glad he turned down X-men Red bc initially Marvel created that book for him
    Don't make me think of it, my anxiety is already beginning to show its ugly head. Probably the one time I was okay with a writer choosing to pass on writing Jean!

  9. #1584
    Fantastic Member Cruelrain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celestialbodies View Post
    I'll never understand how he murdered ALL the X-men in OML?
    With plot force, i mean Jean's power work with thoughts, even if he "can't be killed" they can put him down easily bya incap

    Imagine Jean immobilizing him and separating the meat from his adamantium bones, even thought she can't break the adamantium she could f*ck him pretty badly just like magneto did once
    Last edited by Cruelrain; 03-26-2020 at 03:57 PM.

  10. #1585
    Smart & Swift & Violent Kitty&Piotr<3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Just be glad he turned down X-men Red bc initially Marvel created that book for him
    And he turned that down because he didn't like the idea of her leading the X-Men, further signifying his taste.

    Quote Originally Posted by Celestialbodies View Post

    Rosenberg is an all around disappointment for me, given what he said about her character in the back of one of the issue then to see what he wrote and moreover the direction he wanted to take her. I honestly can't believe how you can research a character like Jean then decide the best thing to do for her is detaching her from any and everything that makes her Jean.
    If you go back and read his letter, he actually doesn't say anything at all meaningful about her character.

    Something to the effect of "I like that she is somebody's mom, girlfriend, and sister" and I just thought about how a significant portion of women are a couple of those things and how that basically says nothing about Jean. Then I read the rest of the story as it came out and the quality of it made sense.
    "Cyclops loves wilted roses because they remind him of dead redheads."
    -Gail

  11. #1586

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cruelrain View Post
    With plot force, i mean Jean's power work with thoughts, even if he "can't be killed" they can put him down easily bya incap

    Imagine Jean immobilizing him and separating the meat from his adamantium bones, even thought she can't break the adamantium she could f*ck him pretty badly just like magneto did once

    Hell she could at least levitate him off the ground, let alone Storm she could dismantle Logan yet add her to the pile of bodies and angst!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post
    And he turned that down because he didn't like the idea of her leading the X-Men, further signifying his taste.



    If you go back and read his letter, he actually doesn't say anything at all meaningful about her character.

    Something to the effect of "I like that she is somebody's mom, girlfriend, and sister" and I just thought about how a significant portion of women are a couple of those things and how that basically says nothing about Jean. Then I read the rest of the story as it came out and the quality of it made sense.
    You right, I'll admit having only read it once, that was a very trying time for me and I was super emotional what with one of my favorite characters returning after 14 years so anything that was said about her that was kind it sent me over the moon. But looking back I just wish her return was handled by ANYONE else he didn't care for who the character was nor the X-men Rosenberg was only interested in telling the stories he wanted regardless of how he got there. His AXM issue leaves such a bad taste in my mouth, such a cynical tone to all his work but without a real message just for the sake of controversy!!

  12. #1587
    Spectacular Member Redshipper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MechaJeanix View Post
    You do realize citing Sue and Reed that they are just one couple and most soap opera couples do break up, cheat, etc. Sue and Reed are anecdotal evidence and may not be representative of fictional couples as a whole. You would need way more examples to adequately argue against my points. They are only one example out of many which means if we were doing actual research on fictional soap opera couples they wouldn't be very meaningful. Though they may not have cheated on each other I think they have had some drama over the years. Their relationship is not perfect by any means.

    I also don't believe some shipper fans aren't upset that Scott and Jean broke up but are more upset about how it happened either. I think, and this is no disrespect to anyone but some people just become obsessed with fictional and nonfictional pairings to a unhealthy degree. I guess people buy into the mythology around "love" and what they think it means (because of how media often portrays romantic love).

    Again some of you try to reduce Jean's story in Morrison's run to only the parts you dislike and that is unfortunate that you can't analyze the work in a more meaningful way.

    At any rate, back to Claremont. X-twitter folks get all bent out of shape because Claremont has negative things to say about the X-men these days. I'm like, so what? He has a very specific idea about the X-men and the characters (he wanted them to grow up and get older, he probably would have kept killing them and changing the rosters, etc). Claremont wanted Jean to stay dead because it was his story and he hated the retcon. He used both Inferno and the classic back up stories to weaken the retcon. For Claremont, both Jean and Rachel were Phoenix. He wrote it for them and he would likely never had made it into a cosmic std. He did use Jean well when he came back to the X-men and in his X-men the End series. His work in Revolution wasn't good but I liked his Jean. His Xtreme was ok but at the time I disliked it because I compared it to Morrison who is a superior writer. Claremont's Reload run was fun but had some strange issues (Dino Rachel need I say more..) Claremont's contribution to the X-men cannot be denied, and he did some good things (created some very strong powerful women). One of his weaker area's imo is the never ending thought balloons where the characters self doubt runs amok (he did this for so many characters and a lot of their thoughts (his dialogue) were pretty much the same. At the end of his initial run he seemed to run out of steam and plus he was better when he was working with good editors and creative artists who could help guide him.

    His version of Jean is my second favorite after the Grant Morrison version. I also like Taylor's, Bendis', and Dennis Hopeless' version of Jean Grey.

    I did think Morrison did a great job with Jean, I would even argue that she was the star of his run up until he killed her off. My beef with him is not that he broke Scott and Jean up, but because he allowed Scott to move on with Emma without giving Jean the same courtesy. If Jean had been allowed to live and move on from Scott, then I wouldn't have the bitterness I currently have towards Scott.
    My problem is that a lot of writers use Jean as an object or character that exists only for Scott to play with and that I am not okay with. I would argue that Emma too should move on from Scott because of the way he treated her.
    I really enjoyed seeing Jean in X-Men red devoid of any relationship drama. I wish I could see more of that but right now I only see bits and piece of her. Even X-Force focusses on Domino.

  13. #1588
    The King Fears NO ONE! Triniking1234's Avatar
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    People are forgetting Claremont was mad because (1) he was forced to kill Jean after the editor saw her eat the star and kill all those veggies and (2) they brought her back behind his back after he already set up Rachel as her replacement.
    "Cable was right!"

  14. #1589
    Ultimate Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triniking1234 View Post
    People are forgetting Claremont was mad because (1) he was forced to kill Jean after the editor saw her eat the star and kill all those veggies and (2) they brought her back behind his back after he already set up Rachel as her replacement.
    I dont think anyone forgets that and it doesnt really matters to him still being bitter about it over 30 years later. Alot of the comments he's made in recent years shown that he has still not moved on from that and it clouds his opinion to this day. I dont think he hates Jean. If anything its Scott that has been most negatively viewed by Claremont when it comes to the decisions made back then

  15. #1590
    Mighty Member MechaJeanix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redshipper View Post
    I did think Morrison did a great job with Jean, I would even argue that she was the star of his run up until he killed her off. My beef with him is not that he broke Scott and Jean up, but because he allowed Scott to move on with Emma without giving Jean the same courtesy. If Jean had been allowed to live and move on from Scott, then I wouldn't have the bitterness I currently have towards Scott.
    My problem is that a lot of writers use Jean as an object or character that exists only for Scott to play with and that I am not okay with. I would argue that Emma too should move on from Scott because of the way he treated her.
    I really enjoyed seeing Jean in X-Men red devoid of any relationship drama. I wish I could see more of that but right now I only see bits and piece of her. Even X-Force focusses on Domino.
    I agree that I wanted Jean to get the same treatment Scott got. He was separated from Jean and became this complex character that was very important to the franchise. I wanted Jean on her own and allowed to develop as well. But it was the editors that wanted Jean to remain dead so I put the blame on them. Of course we did get Jean in X-men Red and that was great but too short lived. I do love the current era and how Jean has been portrayed so far (for the most part) but once again she' connected to both Scott and Logan. At least she gets some good showing in X-force even though Logan is on that team.

    I was just re-reading some of the Morrison era (including Jean's cameos in Xtreme X-men) and it was such a good era. Jean got so much focus (panel time and dialogue) in New X-men it will always boggle my mind that Jean fans hate it just because of some basic relationship drama and the fact that Jean died (hey at least she died at the end of the series). She was one of the major stars of Grant's run ( the others being Scott, Emma, and Xavier). She got to be written by the best X-men writer (as much as I like Hickman he is no Morrison - Morrison is so much better at characterization, dialogue and use of the character's powers).

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