Jean Grey: Phoenix/Marvel Girl Appreciation 2020

[johnnysv75]

Being a writers "favorite" doesn't always mean anything. You get the writers where its really obvious and the ones where it's not so obvious to the point where it can seem quite the opposite.

If I remember correctly, Jean wasn’t a favorite for Morrison or Taylor, but both wrote her perfectly. They understood her and they knew her voice. Percy seems to be going in the right direction, at least I hope so.

Hickman writes Jean as she was written in the 60s. Maybe he is going somewhere with that, I don’t know, but in the meantime he is doing her a great disservice. And it really doesn’t matter if there are story reasons behind her portrayal, you just don’t piss on what previous writers have done with a character. Maybe there is a power-up coming in the near future for Jean, but if you want to write interesting stories about a female character in 2020, this is not the way to go. Claremont gave Jean her character development in the late 70s, let’s build from what he did, instead of regressing Jean back to Marvel Girl-Jean in order to re-tell Claremont’s more than 40 year old story.

[spirit2011]

If I remember correctly, Jean wasn’t a favorite for Morrison or Taylor, but both wrote her perfectly. They understood her and they knew her voice. Percy seems to be going in the right direction, at least I hope so.

Hickman writes Jean as she was written in the 60s. Maybe he is going somewhere with that, I don’t know, but in the meantime he is doing her a great disservice. And it really doesn’t matter if there are story reasons behind her portrayal, you just don’t piss on what previous writers have done with a character. Maybe there is a power-up coming in the near future for Jean, but if you want to write interesting stories about a female character in 2020, this is not the way to go. Claremont gave Jean her character development in the late 70s, let’s build from what he did, instead of regressing Jean back to Marvel Girl-Jean in order to re-tell Claremont’s more than 40 year old story.

Jean wasn't taylor favorite, but he also liked the character and took her at this heart. I usually like Taylor works as he very often nail most of his cast, he made Injustice comics readable.
Morrison killed Jean to elevate his two faves, so this isn't a good example.

Being a writer favorite have a lot of weight on the last 15 years of x-men comics, writers often pushed their faves to spotlight.

It would bug me more if Hickman regressed Jean to later develop than writing her like this because this is the way he characterizes her.
characters doesn't need to be regressed to be develop, specially crapping on the work other writers did

For being a supposed writers' favorite, Emma really has been portrayed poorly for quite some time. Yeah sure we all know she's supposed to be this powerful, confident woman in command of her sexuality, but honestly I can hardly remember the last time she actually did anything cool. And they always seem to make sure that she can't share panel space with Jean without being utterly humiliated, which I suppose is great for us Jean fans but really not a good showing for someone who was supposed to be the leading lady of the X-Men in the modern era.

Emma fans are really liking Hickman era.
I didn't saw Jean humiliating Emma, on giant size Jean just is a better and more powerful telepath

[Devaishwarya]

Being a writers "favorite" doesn't always mean anything. You get the writers where its really obvious and the ones where it's not so obvious to the point where it can seem quite the opposite.

I always liked this pin-up. Glad they didn't recolor it.

One of my favourite looks for Jean. I wish we get to see an updated version of this during DoX

[SiegePerilous02]

I feel like we haven't gotten nearly enough of Hickman's Jean to declare that he's regressed her to the 60s era or that he's doing her a disservice. HoX #4 was underwhelming compared to the equivalent arcs in "E is For Extinction" (though how bad it was has been SEVERELY exaggerated and context and nuanced has to be ignored), but other than that we have the main feature being Giant Size.

And of course in the build up to that issue, people were saying it was 100% certain Hickman would make Jean look like a chump to prop up Emma. When that didn't happen, the narrative had to shift to it all being down to Dauterman so people could save face, despite the fact that Hickman is clearly a fan of the Morrison run in general and referencing Jean's showing in the silent issue was probably something he didn't need his arm twisted to write.

Honestly, ditch the Marvel Girl outfit and she has one ok showing, one great showing, and a seat of importance on the Quiet Council and a regular role in another book. Which is far more than most other characters are getting.

[spirit2011]

No one was saving face on Dauterman, before we read the issue it was clear that he was co-ploting and it was almost a page by page from the Morrison's issue.

There isn't other reason for using the marvel girl costume that isn't regressing her to 60s. Of course he can't just write her exactly like she was, so something have to give in

*maybe not regressing to marvel girl levels, but Hickman for sure regressed the character

[Havok83]

I feel like we haven't gotten nearly enough of Hickman's Jean to declare that he's regressed her to the 60s era or that he's doing her a disservice. HoX #4 was underwhelming compared to the equivalent arcs in "E is For Extinction" (though how bad it was has been SEVERELY exaggerated and context and nuanced has to be ignored), but other than that we have the main feature being Giant Size.

And of course in the build up to that issue, people were saying it was 100% certain Hickman would make Jean look like a chump to prop up Emma. When that didn't happen, the narrative had to shift to it all being down to Dauterman so people could save face, despite the fact that Hickman is clearly a fan of the Morrison run in general and referencing Jean's showing in the silent issue was probably something he didn't need his arm twisted to write.

Honestly, ditch the Marvel Girl outfit and she has one ok showing, one great showing, and a seat of importance on the Quiet Council and a regular role in another book. Which is far more than most other characters are getting.

Yes we have. He's been around for long enough now for people to have formed a valid opinion.. If you need more time, then have had it but when we see others tackle her and she is treated so much better, then the problem lies with him and how he perceives her. I gave him credit for the last 2 issues of X-men so maybe thats the start of him being better with her, but he hasnt done enough good for me to overall be satisfied with him as a writer for her

As for the GS issues, people like myself were scared bc we didnt know the nature of the issue. I thought Hickman was writing a oneshot until I read the issue and saw that it was an homage to the Morrison issue complete with no dialogue. With no dialogue, that meant that Hickman wasnt as involved with this as originally thought so of course the narrative shifted to Dautermann. It wasnt to save face but more of the actual fact

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

I don't even get what's so great about her appearances in the last two issues, tbh.

[Wiccan]

I don't even get what's so great about her appearances in the last two issues, tbh.

It just wasn't bad. Some people were worried every time Hickman wrote her would be like HOX #4.

[Havok83]

I don't even get what's so great about her appearances in the last two issues, tbh.

It wasnt great but the bar was set so low by him prior that I was okay with her simply coming across competent. Whereas in the past, there was alot to complain about what he wrote for her, here there wasnt really much. She was alright. This was an improvement over his previous issues but definitely not up to the standard we are seeing in X-Force

[SiegePerilous02]

No one was saving face on Dauterman, before we read the issue it was clear that he was co-ploting and it was almost a page by page from the Morrison's issue.

They pretty much were. The announcement thread for the issue was longer than the talkback thread because it was 90% made up of repeated comments about how Hickman would throw Jean under the bus for Emma and that the issue would be the worst thing ever for her.

As for the GS issues, people like myself were scared bc we didnt know the nature of the issue. I thought Hickman was writing a oneshot until I read the issue and saw that it was an homage to the Morrison issue complete with no dialogue. With no dialogue, that meant that Hickman wasnt as involved with this as originally thought so of course the narrative shifted to Dautermann. It wasnt to save face but more of the actual fact

There are more details in a comic script than just dialogue. Unless he gave you a peak you of the script for that issue that he worked on with Dauterman, you don't have any more idea of how involved he was than the rest of us. You aren't coming from a place of actual fact at all, just assumption.

So after all the hooplah before the issue would come out that there would be something to worry about, it actually turned out great for her. But God forbid we admit that maybe Hickman isn't awful with Jean, so in order to avoid eating crow, Dauterman had to be given most of the credit when for all we know writer and artist may have been 100% on the same page as to how she would be depicted. I doubt Dauterman threw in the Inferno reference (for example) on his own when there already was one in HoX and we have the larger Inferno stuff going throughout this new era.

It just wasn't bad. Some people were worried every time Hickman wrote her would be like HOX #4.

Yep. Nothing has been bad so far. Would I like more for her? Yes, but I'm not reading the main X-Book just for her. And she has X-Force.

HoX is as bad as we've gotten so far, and I still think the reaction to that was overblown.

[spirit2011]

They pretty much were. The announcement thread for the issue was longer than the talkback thread because it was 90% made up of repeated comments about how Hickman would throw Jean under the bus for Emma and that the issue would be the worst thing ever for her.

people thought it would be a original story, instead it was a cover of a old issue

[SiegePerilous02]

people thought it would be a original story, instead it was a cover of a old issue

Doesn't matter, any way you slice it the "sky is falling" predictions ended up as premature and false.

And it was a new/original story that was a homage/callback to a previous one to inform the new status quos by using the past to inform the present. Which superhero comics do a lot.

[Havok83]

There are more details in a comic script than just dialogue. Unless he gave you a peak you of the script for that issue that he worked on with Dauterman, you don't have any more idea of how involved he was than the rest of us. You aren't coming from a place of actual fact at all, just assumption.

So after all the hooplah before the issue would come out that there would be something to worry about, it actually turned out great for her. But God forbid we admit that maybe Hickman isn't awful with Jean, so in order to avoid eating crow, Dauterman had to be given most of the credit when for all we know writer and artist may have been 100% on the same page as to how she would be depicted. I doubt Dauterman threw in the Inferno reference (for example) on his own when there already was one in HoX and we have the larger Inferno stuff going throughout this new era.



Yep. Nothing has been bad so far. Would I like more for her? Yes, but I'm not reading the main X-Book just for her. And she has X-Force.

HoX is as bad as we've gotten so far, and I still think the reaction to that was overblown.

Did you read the issue alongside the Morrison issue? Its frame by frame remake in most of panels. The writer's involvement here is minimal compared to the artist. Even the words that Hickman wrote were taken directly from the original New X-men issue. Dautermann did the heavily lifting by adapting it to a new setting and visual look.

And please dont come for me in terms of saying Hickman is strictly bad for Jean. I have given him credit where credit is due as I did part of the post of mine that you cut out

[spirit2011]

Doesn't matter, any way you slice it the "sky is falling" predictions ended up as premature and false.

And it was a new/original story that was a homage/callback to a previous one to inform the new status quos by using the past to inform the present. Which superhero comics do a lot.

people work with what they have, so predicitons were fair.

Not the way Hickman used the morrison issue, it was almost the same story/style

Did you read the issue alongside the Morrison issue? Its frame by frame remake in most of panels. The writer's involvement here is minimal compared to the artist. Even the words that Hickman wrote were taken directly from the original New X-men issue. Dautermann did the heavily lifting by adapting it to a new setting and visual look.

And please dont come for me in terms of saying Hickman is strictly bad for Jean. I have given him credit where credit is due as I did part of the post of mine that you cut out

Even on nightcrawler issue, Hickman just plotted and Alan davis scripted the issue

[johnnysv75]

I feel like we haven't gotten nearly enough of Hickman's Jean to declare that he's regressed her to the 60s era or that he's doing her a disservice. HoX #4 was underwhelming compared to the equivalent arcs in "E is For Extinction" (though how bad it was has been SEVERELY exaggerated and context and nuanced has to be ignored), but other than that we have the main feature being Giant Size.

It seems like he wrote a completely different character than the Jean I know and love. I mean, compare Taylor’s Jean with Hickman’s Jean. Taylor’s Jean is experienced, powerful. Hickman’s Jean is insecure and needs to be told what to do.

X-Men Red Annual:


HoX 4: