Jean Grey: Phoenix/Marvel Girl Appreciation 2020

[SiegePerilous02]

Did you read the issue alongside the Morrison issue? Its frame by frame remake in most of panels. The writer's involvement here is minimal compared to the artist. Even the words that Hickman wrote were taken directly from the original New X-men issue. Dautermann did the heavily lifting by adapting it to a new setting and visual look.

And please dont come for me in terms of saying Hickman is strictly bad for Jean. I have given him credit where credit is due as I did part of the post of mine that you cut out

I own both issues and I've re-read them both. Dauterman may have done some of the heavy lifting, but seeing as how there are references to other stuff being seeded in DoX (the Children of the Vault, the Inferno references, a possible connective tissue on the egg theme that both Ororo and Lady Mastermind are trapped in) that Dauterman doesn't have direct involvement in, we don't know what the written script looked like.

I saw your comment on the last two issues, but my main point was the Giant size issue. And I wasn't necessarily coming for you specifically.

people work with what they have, so predicitons were fair.

Not the way Hickman used the morrison issue, it was almost the same story/style

A lot of it went beyond predictions and was treated with absolute certainty. And people didn't have much to work with at the time to be treating anything with absolute certainty. it was more unchecked paranoia than predictions. And it all ended up being hilariously false and premature.

If it was the same story, it wouldn't show how Jean and Emma have a much more cooperative working dynamic than they did previously and function better as a team. It uses the past to inform how they act now by contrasting things. Same with how stand off-ish Scott, Jean, Logan and Emma were in the original issue but are much more relaxed now. It's working with contrasts, in which case the "echoing" is one of the more effective ways to convey it.

It seems like he wrote a completely different character than the Jean I know and love. Compared Taylor’s Jean with Hickman’s Jean.

X-Men Red Annual:


HoX 4:

I haven't read Taylor's stuff, honestly have no plan or interest to if it doesn't inform much on the current era. That is a nice little scene though.

But this specific instance in HoX is one of the moments I see exaggerated and people not picking up on the subtext. Jean is capable of doing this feat by herself (as we are SHOWN a few pages later), that's not why she's yelling for Monet come with her. Monet intends to sacrifice herself and Jean is pulling this excuse out of her ass so Monet won't stay and die. Monet calls her lie and sends her away.

Not wanting people to die (even with the resurrection protocols in place) is in character for Jean. Especially as she experienced the mental deaths of Warren and whats-her-face a few moments before.

[Havok83]

It seems like he wrote a completely different character than the Jean I know and love. Compared Taylor’s Jean with Hickman’s Jean.

Jean from the 60s written by Roy Thomas had fire to her



She's not timid when put in tense situations. She's a fighter to the end

[MechaJeanix]

House of X 4 wasn't a great moment for Jean but in the last two issues of Hickman's X-men book Jean has been competent and had a decent voice. She didn't do a whole lot but she still played an important part (getting the info from Broo and telling Scott, and relaying information about the Brood to Scott in that last issue). It was a far improvement from that one page from House of X 4. In that issue Jean was used similar to how Marina Sirtis described her character (Deanna Troi) from Star Trek TNG where she was the "girl" character that had to be all things to all of the men in the show (so sometimes she was strong other times she was weak, sometimes really smart, others times not knowledgeable, she was the love interest/sex object for multiple characters, the best friend, support character, whatever role needed). Jean gets treated in similar ways sometimes and it makes her characterization inconsistent. For whatever reason in House of X 4 Hickman chose Jean to show the reader that the situation was dire and that there was reason to panic/be afraid. Based on what Hickman said about the differences in Jean and Emma's use of their telepathy it seems that Hickman sees Jean as a very emotional character so that is probably his justification for the House of X 4 scene.

Also, since Jean is telepathic and was in mental contact with the X-men as they died we can use that and the fact she was likely injured by the explosion to softly explain away the bad House of X scene. It is odd that they had Jean freak out and later in X-force Percy has Jean talk about how she's not afraid of death (Jean said something similar to Cassandra in X-men Red as well).

[MechaJeanix]

Jean from the 60s written by Roy Thomas had fire to her



She's not timid when put in tense situations. She's a fighter to the end

I wish writers would write her with more "fire" to her. It is an element that has been missing for a while. Though I think Percy is the closest to capturing it in the current era. I'm just not sure how much he will use her. She hasn't had a big role in X-force in a few issues, and I still expect her to appear in Hickman's book from time to time.

[SerCo]

Yeah 60s Jean gets a bad rep but really wasn't that bad. And she became a lot more proactive towards the end.

Also it's still too early to judge Hickman's Jean, we don't know what he's planning to do with her

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

One of the most popular and canonically gifted PSIs made it through an issue on the astral plane without being useless. All credit due to Hickman for the top-notch work.

[SiegePerilous02]

One of the most popular and canonically gifted PSIs made it through an issue on the astral plane without being useless. All credit due to Hickman for the top-notch work.

It's not as if anyone is saying that it was a difficult thing for him to do, more that it ended up being the exact opposite of the doom and gloom a lot of people were predicting based on very little (if not nothing).

[MechaJeanix]

On the topic of Giant Sized X-men Jean Grey and Emma Frost, this is what Dauterman said in a Marvel.com interview:

There was one story bit in particular that was left open-ended in the outline, so I took that opportunity to add in some X-Men history. ☺

https://www.marvel.com/articles/comi...and-emma-frost

So I'm thinking the X-men history that the artist added was the nod to Inferno and the time Emma and Storm switched bodies. So those scenes may have come from him and not Hickman's script. Of course I'm assuming but where else did we see X-men history in the issue?

[SiegePerilous02]

On the topic of Giant Sized X-men Jean Grey and Emma Frost, this is what Dauterman said in a Marvel.com interview:



https://www.marvel.com/articles/comi...and-emma-frost

So I'm thinking the X-men history that the artist added was the nod to Inferno and the time Emma and Storm switched bodies. So those scenes may have come from him and not Hickman's script. Of course I'm assuming but where else did we see X-men history in the issue?

That's a strong possibility. Still, that Inferno nod is the same one referenced by Jean and Ororo in HoX #5 and we have all the other Inferno stuff going in DoX.

If it was all Dauterman, good on him for picking the right moment that ends up consistent with everything else

[Havok83]

That's a strong possibility. Still, that Inferno nod is the same one referenced by Jean and Ororo in HoX #5 and we have all the other Inferno stuff going in DoX.

If it was all Dauterman, good on him for picking the right moment that ends up consistent with everything else

That Inferno bit in HoX is courtesy of Leah Williams. She's the one that suggested that to Hickman

[Soulsword323]

To be fair, Taylor's best work with Jean was in that annual (that art though.........). Outside of that, people were wanting his Jean to have more depth. He understood that Jean's compassion and empathy are at the forefront of the character, but he didn't really go beyond that. Tom was clearly capable of writing a nuanced Jean, but we didn't always get to see that.

[johnnysv75]

Also, since Jean is telepathic and was in mental contact with the X-men as they died we can use that and the fact she was likely injured by the explosion to softly explain away the bad House of X scene. It is odd that they had Jean freak out and later in X-force Percy has Jean talk about how she's not afraid of death (Jean said something similar to Cassandra in X-men Red as well).

Hickman is a talented writer, he knows what he is doing. I am not sure that we should be forced to find reasons for the poor portrayal of Jean. She is one of the most experienced X-Men. She has been to hell and back - several times. She has been severely injured before. She has felt the deaths of loved ones before. When she has been in hopeless situations she hasn’t cried for help, she has fought back - with a vengeance. Either Hickman doesn’t really know or care about Jean, which is too bad since he is the main writer, or he had a reason to write her the way he did - and that reason seems to have gone out the window since Percy is writing a competent, passionate, powerful, brave, fiery Jean in X-Force. Or the editors don’t really care enough to make sure that the characterisation in the different books is in synch.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

It's not as if anyone is saying that it was a difficult thing for him to do, more that it ended up being the exact opposite of the doom and gloom a lot of people were predicting based on very little (if not nothing).

The opposite of doom and gloom is soaring triumph. We've merely lowered the bar to where it's considered a spotlight issue and a feat if Jean isn't helpless or paralyzed when she appears.

[spirit2011]

To be fair, Taylor's best work with Jean was in that annual (that art though.........). Outside of that, people were wanting his Jean to have more depth. He understood that Jean's compassion and empathy are at the forefront of the character, but he didn't really go beyond that. Tom was clearly capable of writing a nuanced Jean, but we didn't always get to see that.

Taylor did what Jean needed: a new purpose, she leading a team not waiting for anyone do something.
he had only 11 issues with a big team to work out, it is understable why we didn't saw more of Jean inner life.
Also it would end up being ignored anyway

[Portsian]

What are the Inferno hints people keep talking about? Have I missed something?