Jean Grey: Phoenix/Marvel Girl Appreciation 2020

[Su_Whisterfield]

I do like how comics in the 90s so seamlessly combined unrealistic body shapes and poses with just about the most aesthetically unappealing costume designs possible, the fact that they're just trying so hard to make everyone sexy and failing spectacularly at it is a source of entertainment in its own right. And honestly, what is so hard about drawing feet?

Do not get me started or I can rant for England.
There was a bad period where many popular, well paid ‘artists’ did not deserve the title ‘professional’.
They learned to draw not by looking at the world but by copying other artists.
And then along came another generation who copied them.
And it all became an unholy mess of confused layouts, non-existent backgrounds, artists unable to draw anything other than superheroes in superhero poses. Because they didn’t understand the most basic visual vocabulary of what they were doing.
They couldn’t draw people sitting, standing, moving in a real space. They couldn’t do feet, or hands, or foreshortening or any of the basics. They had no clue about perspective or anatomy, all they could do was ape other, poor, artists, magnifying their erroes and perpetuating their mistakes.
It drove me away from superhero comics for over 20 years.

Sorry.

I could go on. But I won’t.

[MechaJeanix]

Although not from the Gold Team era, after X-Tinction Agenda, the leaders of the X-Men were considered to be Cyclops, Jean, Storm, and Cable when they all came together to consider how to pursue Xavier's dream after Genosha.

I wonder if Jean would have included Wolverine in X-Men 28 alongside Cyclops, Storm, and Beast had he still been at the mansion at the time.

I don't see Colossus ever serving as team leader. I think even in Claremont's run after Storm was depowered, they needed a team leader and it came to Nightcrawler automatically because Wolverine refused to do it, Rogue was too brash, and Kitty too young. Colossus wasn't even a contender. And I think Kitty actually did, despite her young age, take some leadership roles even then which goes to show how Colossus was always dismissed for such a role.

I don't disagree but I placed Colossus as a contender because of his seniority with the X-men and his temperament*. Again no one was ever said to be an official second in command so I was just coming up with why I think Jean would be the most likely candidate (if there was one).

My favorite issues of the Gold Team era are Uncanny 300 and 302. I also love 281 because it was the first X-men issue I owned where Jean did something more than stand around (I started collecting during the Blue Team era and eventually I found a store in my area that also sold Uncanny X-men).

*his base personality because as we know he becomes a little more aggressive later on due to the perceived death of his brother, the deaths of his parents, and the death of his sister.

[Celestialbodies]

loved this part from the issue u where discusing before

I don't know why but I always attribute that pose to Jean, it seems like such a Jean action. Added points for disincorporating a psionic exoskeleton.

I've bee re-reading 90's Uncanny X-men for fun recently and I have a renewed love for the Gold Team. We know over in the Blue Team that Beast ends up in command when Cyclops is away (also when Wolverine is no longer on the team). We don't really know who was second in command of the Gold Team but I can make an argument for Jean.

Jean was ordering Bishop and Colossus around during the Morlock story when Storm was unavailable. Jean was also ordering around Bishop and Iceman during the fight with Legion when Storm was again temporarily unavailable (The Gold team minus Archangel and insert Psylocke fought Legion during Legion's Quest). The scan you posted shows Jean acting in a leadership role while both Scott and Storm were off campus.

Also in X-men 28 the X-men leaders appear to be Scott, Beast, Storm, and Jean (going by those Jean reached out to when she was worried about Xavier taking in Sabretooth).

Though no second in command of the Gold team was ever mentioned (to my knowledge), Bishop was too new to the X-men to take on the role, Archangel had too many issues, Iceman just wasn't serious enough, Colossus could theoretically be a contender, and Forge possibly could have filled the role if he spent more time with the team (he seemed more like an assistant to Xavier).

In any event Jean was a senior member and while she didn't get a lot of screen time during Gold Team issues/missions she was still an asset to Storm's team. Though not the cool team of the era I just love Storm, Jean, Iceman, Angel, Colossus, and Bishop together. I know what some will say about nostalgia but let me have my moment :lol

Also like I said earlier there were times in X-factor where Jean felt like a leader (again look at issues where Scott was away or unavailable). I think becoming a leader was a natural evolution for Jean even without Teen Jean.

Can I just say how much I enjoy your very thoughtful and eloquent responses!!!

[Vishop]

I do like how comics in the 90s so seamlessly combined unrealistic body shapes and poses with just about the most aesthetically unappealing costume designs possible, the fact that they're just trying so hard to make everyone sexy and failing spectacularly at it is a source of entertainment in its own right. And honestly, what is so hard about drawing feet?

90s didn't have artists who crop or trace art from other artists and even from porn.

[franckd]

90s didn't have artists who crop or trace art from other artists and even from porn.

Rob Liefeld? Copying from many other artists.
Roger Cruz? Copying Joe Madureira.

[Su_Whisterfield]

Rob Liefeld? Copying from many other artists.
Roger Cruz? Copying Joe Madureira.

Couldn’t even copy adequately.
And if you are going to copy, copy the greats, the Eisner's, the Ditko’s, the Kirby’s...

[MechaJeanix]

90s didn't have artists who crop or trace art from other artists and even from porn.

I was going to mention Roger Cruz but Frank already mentioned him. Google image search 'comics artist swipes Roger Cruz' for more examples for him.

Look at X-men Unlimited 6 (the issue with Jean, Scott, Polaris, and Alex vs. Sauron). There are several examples of swipes in that comic. For example, you will notice some Jean scenes that are identical in pose to a past X-men issue by Jim Lee where she encounters the Shadow King on the astral plane.

[Vishop]

Rob Liefeld? Copying from many other artists.
Roger Cruz? Copying Joe Madureira.

I don't think I have seen Liefeld copying from other artists. But yes his anatomy is bad. Not some dubious and pornographic as Greg Land. At least he should get props for creating X-Force. The very team which Jean is been.

[Vishop]

I was going to mention Roger Cruz but Frank already mentioned him. Google image search 'comics artist swipes Roger Cruz' for more examples for him.

Look at X-men Unlimited 6 (the issue with Jean, Scott, Polaris, and Alex vs. Sauron). There are several examples of swipes in that comic. For example, you will notice some Jean scenes that are identical in pose to a past X-men issue by Jim Lee where she encounters the Shadow King on the astral plane.

Honestly, I didn't know much about Cruz but then again I haven't read X-Men Unlimited either.. Jim Lee had a problem of drawing disproportionate female characters during 90s but he had improved when he joined DC.

[MechaJeanix]

Can I just say how much I enjoy your very thoughtful and eloquent responses!!!

Thank you! I love posting here and interacting with everyone. It is a fun break from the rest of the world to geek out about our fav x-men characters.

[franckd]

I don't think I have seen Liefeld copying from other artists. But yes his anatomy is bad. Not some dubious and pornographic as Greg Land. At least he should get props for creating X-Force. The very team which Jean is been.

No worry. We're not omnipotent, and we learn things till the end hopefully. Rob Liefeld is most known for his (horrible) anatomy rendition. But he also used to copy.

Liefeld :


Original (Byrne)


Original (Garner) on the left. Liefled on the right.


There are other exemples of course, but the forum allow me only 3 images by comment. I didn't know if I am allowed by the forum rules, to create an other comment to put some other exemples.

[whitecrown]

I don't disagree but I placed Colossus as a contender because of his seniority with the X-men and his temperament*. Again no one was ever said to be an official second in command so I was just coming up with why I think Jean would be the most likely candidate (if there was one).

My favorite issues of the Gold Team era are Uncanny 300 and 302. I also love 281 because it was the first X-men issue I owned where Jean did something more than stand around (I started collecting during the Blue Team era and eventually I found a store in my area that also sold Uncanny X-men).

*his base personality because as we know he becomes a little more aggressive later on due to the perceived death of his brother, the deaths of his parents, and the death of his sister.

Oh I agree with you that Jean would be the most likely candidate for a second-in-command hence why I said I don't think Peter would be up for the role even in his natural state. In Claremont's run pretty much all the characters got a chance to lead except for Peter.

My favorite Gold Team issues are 303 (Illyana's death and Jean comforting Jubilee) and 310 (Jean proposes to Scott during Thanksgiving). There was one with her and Warren and their friendship was covered as they battle Cameron Hodge and believe Candy Southern is alive again but I don't remember the issue number. I'm fond of that as well.

[MechaJeanix]

Oh I agree with you that Jean would be the most likely candidate for a second-in-command hence why I said I don't think Peter would be up for the role even in his natural state. In Claremont's run pretty much all the characters got a chance to lead except for Peter.

My favorite Gold Team issues are 303 (Illyana's death and Jean comforting Jubilee) and 310 (Jean proposes to Scott during Thanksgiving). There was one with her and Warren and their friendship was covered as they battle Cameron Hodge and believe Candy Southern is alive again but I don't remember the issue number. I'm fond of that as well.

That would be Uncanny X-men 306. I like this issue a lot as well. I also love the issue Jean proposes to Scott. It was a nice Jean-centric issue.

The Gold Tea started with a lot of action (Trevor Fitzroy, the Reavers, the sentinels, Emma Frost, the Hellions, the introduction of Bishop, Jean's "death", etc). They adventure in the void with Peter's brother was a little strange and the Morlock story may not have been the best (I still enjoy it however), but they later got to fight the Acolytes which was cool. During the X-cutioners song they got to interact with Apocalypse (minus Jean who was captured and Bishop who was watching over Xavier). The last Gold team mission appears to be the Legion battle, and I believe the last mention of the Blue and Gold teams were in the Onslaught crossover (when Jean states that the Blue and Gold teams are decimated). Someone can correct me if that wasn't the last mention of the separate teams (interestingly enough by then the teams seemed to have merged).

[whitecrown]

That would be Uncanny X-men 306. I like this issue a lot as well. I also love the issue Jean proposes to Scott. It was a nice Jean-centric issue.

The Gold Tea started with a lot of action (Trevor Fitzroy, the Reavers, the sentinels, Emma Frost, the Hellions, the introduction of Bishop, Jean's "death", etc). They adventure in the void with Peter's brother was a little strange and the Morlock story may not have been the best (I still enjoy it however), but they later got to fight the Acolytes which was cool. During the X-cutioners song they got to interact with Apocalypse (minus Jean who was captured and Bishop who was watching over Xavier). The last Gold team mission appears to be the Legion battle, and I believe the last mention of the Blue and Gold teams were in the Onslaught crossover (when Jean states that the Blue and Gold teams are decimated). Someone can correct me if that wasn't the last mention of the separate teams (interestingly enough by then the teams seemed to have merged).

I've always been a fan of the Warren/Jean relationship and tbh, I feel like they'd almost be more compatible as a couple now since I'm totally over Scott. Especially considering how similar some of their mythos are between Warren being an Angel/Archangel and Jean being Phoenix and as Dark Phoenix, she's called the Black Angel. Both have wings imagery, both have Hellfire Club connections (especially if we believe this idea that an ancestor of Jean was the former Black Queen), both have had a fall from grace along with physical and emotional transformations and trauma, and then if you involve Apocalypse, the dynamic between them gets even clearer. Like in UXF, when AoA Jean confronts Archangel and her power fails on him because he points out that as the Phoenix, she wants the same cycle of life and rebirth that Apocalypse stands for. In the Apocalypse Files from X-Factor, which were posted in the past few pages, Apocalypse calls himself the Black King and Jean the White Queen and notes that Warren is like his son and heir who could take on that mantle so that further sets up Warren and Jean almost as this evolutionary pinnacle. On a darker note, I suppose they've both committed genocide as well. And it never seemed like Warren's heart was into any of his relationships after Jean as Candy pointed out, with the exception of Betsy and even that was really only set up in UXF which also had Jean as an important influence on Warren and Betsy as a couple. The early 05 comics made it seem like they were the obvious couple which is why it made sense to not put them together, but they did wind up together in a What If? issue and in X-Men Season One, Jean does eventually develop an interest in Warren by which time he's already moved on. In X-Factor, it also seemed like in the early issues that maybe Warren and Jean might come together since Scott was unavailable because of Maddie.

I liked the start of the Gold Team era but I had no interest in the Morlocks and Mikhail Rasputin storyline. I'm not sure why they brought back Mikhail only to kill him off (and eventually bring him back again) nor why Claremont had basically set up the end of the Morlocks but they were restored to their status quo here. It was an odd story overall, but I did like those late 290s issues that involved the Acolytes and Jean had some great power stunts in them. I never read the Onslaught story so I didn't realize that's when the Blue/Gold team distinction was officially abandoned. I always figured that occurred to some extent after Scott and Jean's wedding.

[MechaJeanix]

I've always been a fan of the Warren/Jean relationship and tbh, I feel like they'd almost be more compatible as a couple now since I'm totally over Scott. Especially considering how similar some of their mythos are between Warren being an Angel/Archangel and Jean being Phoenix and as Dark Phoenix, she's called the Black Angel. Both have wings imagery, both have Hellfire Club connections (especially if we believe this idea that an ancestor of Jean was the former Black Queen), both have had a fall from grace along with physical and emotional transformations and trauma, and then if you involve Apocalypse, the dynamic between them gets even clearer. Like in UXF, when AoA Jean confronts Archangel and her power fails on him because he points out that as the Phoenix, she wants the same cycle of life and rebirth that Apocalypse stands for. In the Apocalypse Files from X-Factor, which were posted in the past few pages, Apocalypse calls himself the Black King and Jean the White Queen and notes that Warren is like his son and heir who could take on that mantle so that further sets up Warren and Jean almost as this evolutionary pinnacle. On a darker note, I suppose they've both committed genocide as well. And it never seemed like Warren's heart was into any of his relationships after Jean as Candy pointed out, with the exception of Betsy and even that was really only set up in UXF which also had Jean as an important influence on Warren and Betsy as a couple. The early 05 comics made it seem like they were the obvious couple which is why it made sense to not put them together, but they did wind up together in a What If? issue and in X-Men Season One, Jean does eventually develop an interest in Warren by which time he's already moved on. In X-Factor, it also seemed like in the early issues that maybe Warren and Jean might come together since Scott was unavailable because of Maddie.

I liked the start of the Gold Team era but I had no interest in the Morlocks and Mikhail Rasputin storyline. I'm not sure why they brought back Mikhail only to kill him off (and eventually bring him back again) nor why Claremont had basically set up the end of the Morlocks but they were restored to their status quo here. It was an odd story overall, but I did like those late 290s issues that involved the Acolytes and Jean had some great power stunts in them. I never read the Onslaught story so I didn't realize that's when the Blue/Gold team distinction was officially abandoned. I always figured that occurred to some extent after Scott and Jean's wedding.

I would check out the Onslaught storyline. Overall it was kind of nuts, but Jean had a good role in the start of the event. X-men 53 is one of my favorites. I also liked the issues with her and the Juggernaut as well as the issue that shows her full message to the other teams (that was first previewed in Uncanny 287).