Jean Grey: Phoenix/Marvel Girl Appreciation 2020

[Cruelrain]

I really liked his Jessica Jones, he made her fly so much during the New Avengers, and sometimes it was like she was not that far with Carol in strenght, when she punched Goliat and Atlas when they were huge was impressive.

[MechaJeanix]

At the same time, I'm glad Alex Ross's designs weren't tainted by Morrison's abysmal run. No need for that negative association.

Morrison's run has been the best X-men run by far. Most of the writers have been ok but never great. Most have been mediocre at best and that includes the beloved Claremont. * (edit to say I do love a lot of Claremont stories especially those centering Storm or Jean Grey).

Morrison's run had themes and layers. It was the intellectual book for those who wanted the X-men to be something more than a run of the mill superhero book. The book had style and substance. Jean Grey had an entire subplot that ran through the entire run. She was confident, capable, powerful and best of yet her story wasn't all about Scott. He had his own plot through the series. Morrison put Jean and the Phoenix back together again and I can't convey what New X-men 154 meant to me.

I loved the entire run - every last issue. I loved the stories that didn't involve Jean such as Riot at Xaviers and Assault on Weapon plus.

I know some hate the run because he killed Jean and then the shipper folks hate it because he ruined Scott/Jean as a pairing, but its ridiculous to reduce the run to those two things. It was so much more.

Jean had so many awesome moments: her interactions with Cassandra, her fighting the U-Men, her fight with Emma, displaying the Phoenix, her death by Wolverine going into the Sun. She had many moments of compassion (for Emma, Beak, Beast, Xorneto, Dust, etc). I loved all the scenes she had with Beast and Xavier.

Until recently (Bendis Teen Jean story, Jean Grey solo and X-men Red) the most attention Jean got storywise where she was centered was in Claremont's original Phoenix saga and then Morrison's New X-men. Jean has good moments in other eras but she didn't always have her own story (in the 90's she shared stories with Scott that often involved their time lost kids).
She did have good moments in other 90's stories (the numerous crossovers) and a few single issues (such as X-men 28).

There are many of us who love the Morrison run and while some have expressed exhaustion at the amount of hate it gets (especially at times in this thread) I would encourage them to participate anyway and always feel welcome to discuss the run. When it came out the majority of folks on this board and every X-men message board that I was aware of loved the run. The few fans who didn't enjoy it usually read Xtreme X-men (not everyone is going to enjoy the same things and that is ok).

[spirit2011]

I would have hated Bendis with Jean. He knows how to fuck up characters better than anyone. He is only good with street level characters. When you put him with big franchises he goes crazy.

he did a great job with Jeen, so I don't think he would let it down with Jean

[MechaJeanix]

I don't know what the first part of your post means. As for your second, I'm incredibly unapologetic and unabashed when it comes to my hate for the fake blonde. If you're a fan of her and want everyone to prop her up by her fake implants, please go over to her thread instead. That place isn't here.

Many of us here also love Emma Frost. We are fans of both. Jean is my main favorite and I'm a die-hard Jean Grey fan but I love almost all the X-men characters and that includes Frost. Some of us hate the 'fan wars' and factions in the fandom. We long for the day that kind of behavior goes away.

[Phoenixx9]

I would like to see her and Carol led a new Guardians of the Galaxy team. With Silver Surfer on there as well like others suggested here.

Yeah, I said this myself when Jean returned. Instead of getting rid of the Phoenix, go to the stars, the way Carol did when she first became Binary, and have cosmic adventures with GoTG, Surfer, Quasar, etc. Lots of good stories there.

[franckd]

Morrison's run has been the best X-men run by far. Most of the writers have been ok but never great. Most have been mediocre at best and that includes the beloved Claremont.

Morrison's run had themes and layers. It was the intellectual book for those who wanted the X-men to be something more than a run of the mill superhero book. The book had style and substance. Jean Grey had an entire subplot that ran through the entire run. She was confident, capable, powerful and best of yet her story wasn't all about Scott. He had his own plot through the series. Morrison put Jean and the Phoenix back together again and I can't convey what New X-men 154 meant to me.

I loved the entire run - every last issue. I loved the stories that didn't involve Jean such as Riot at Xaviers and Assault on Weapon plus.

I know some hate the run because he killed Jean and then the shipper folks hate it because he ruined Scott/Jean as a pairing, but its ridiculous to reduce the run to those two things. It was so much more.

Jean had so many awesome moments: her interactions with Cassandra, her fighting the U-Men, her fight with Emma, displaying the Phoenix, her death by Wolverine going into the Sun. She had many moments of compassion (for Emma, Beak, Beast, Xorneto, Dust, etc). I loved all the scenes she had with Beast and Xavier.

Until recently (Bendis Teen Jean story, Jean Grey solo and X-men Red) the most attention Jean got storywise where she was centered was in Claremont's original Phoenix saga and then Morrison's New X-men. Jean has good moments in other eras but she didn't always have her own story (in the 90's she shared stories with Scott that often involved their time lost kids).
She did have good moments in other 90's stories (the numerous crossovers) and a few single issues (such as X-men 28).

There are many of us who love the Morrison run and while some have expressed exhaustion at the amount of hate it gets (especially at times in this thread) I would encourage them to participate anyway and always feel welcome to discuss the run. When it came out the majority of folks on this board and every X-men message board loved the run. The few fans who didn't enjoy it usually read Xtreme X-men.

I agree with you. And thanks for spreading your love for the run. But today, I don't want to waste my time explaining why I love Morrison's run so much, as s some people will always reduce it to "Scemma" and Jean's death. Some of them are so full of hate, it's quite... scary. Like this fan, years ago (a Jott fan who was furious because Pak did not end Scemma) who sent death threats to Grek Pak when Endsong was released! I mean, how unbalanced can you be, to do such an horrible thing? Imo, that kind of people are toxic and are taking their "passion" for comics books to a very dark level.

[spirit2011]

At least he wouldn't have left her on the sidelines like Hickman is doing now and Hickman has made it very clear in the past that he doesn't care much for Jean. Whether you like how he dealt with characters like Luke Cage, Spider-Woman, Daredevil, Ms. Marvel, etc. is one thing, but it's no question that he dramatically raised the profiles of most of these characters. The only character he really butchered imo was Scarlet Witch.

dareedvil was a great run. bendis revitalized interest on Luke Cage and Jessica jones.
I just not a big fan of his carol danvers, but he has a lot more positives than negatives

[MechaJeanix]

I agree with you. And thanks for spreading your love for the run. But today, I don't want to waste my time explaining why I love Morrison's run so much, as s some people will always reduce it to "Scemma" and Jean's death. Some of them are so full of hate, it's quite... scary. Like this fan, years ago (a Jott fan who was furious because Pak did not end Scemma) who sent death threats to Grek Pak when Endsong was released! I mean, how unbalanced can you be, to do such an horrible thing? Imo, that kind of people are toxic and are taking their "passion" for comics books to a very dark level.

I remember all too well and I even brought this event up on this board a year ago or so and a few folks tried to deny it happened. That guy was a notorious shipper fan. Often the online Jean Grey fandom gets a bad rep but often it is the Scott/Jean shippers who tend to go overboard with their zealous obsession over a "ship". I don't get the fervor over romance and fictional (or non-fictional) pairings (no one will ever accuse me of being a romantic LOL - and I say that as someone who has been in a 12 + year relationship) so it is hard for me to relate.

All I can say to them is that the Morrison version of Jean Grey (to me) is the standard. It is the one I enjoy the most. It is the run I keep going back to re-read and especially if I need a pick me up. The only negative thing about Morrison's run is that it temporarily ruined most other X-men books for me (back then I couldn't read 90's X-men anymore or even some of Claremont's later work). That eventually wore off and I enjoy them all now, but New X-men to me will always be the best. Again it was also an exciting time in my life (it came out when I was a young college student enjoying life .. so I related to both Jean and Scott in that run just in different ways).

[Marvelboy1974]

Am I the only one that loves Jean Grey as Phoenix in name only without the Phoenix force but with the uniform and her pink energy powers? I loved it in the late 90’s when she would manifest a pink Phoenix raptor and reclaimed the costume as her own.
I also love stories the feature Jean and Ororo together, kicking ass.

On a side note, will Jean have a role in the X of Swords story? Seams unlikely and I’m just not hyped to read it.

[Cruelrain]

On a side note, will Jean have a role in the X of Swords story? Seams unlikely and I’m just not hyped to read it.

It seems like she ins't, she ins't on that cover and Rachel has like a Phoenix sword from what i read from her fans.

[spirit2011]

I never knew Carey was a Jean fan and I'd like to have seen what he had planned for her.

Bendis I know was a Jean fan which doesn't surprise me because he seems to love the 70s characters based on how he brought back characters like Luke Cage, Spider-Woman, Ms. Marvel, and Iron Fist so Phoenix Jean came from that same era. Bendis also inserted Jean into Jessica Jones' origin which I thought was neat and branched Jean out into the wider Marvel Universe. Jessica Jones was originally supposed to be Jessica Drew so I would have preferred that because it would have tied two Claremontian women together and put Jean that much closer to Carol Danvers since Jessica Drew is her bestie.

This was also teased during Secret Invasion so it does seem like Bendis would have brought back Jean if he could have much earlier.


X-Men Red and X-Men Dissassembled was a good platform for Jean because it used her as the leader and face of the X-Men but unfortunately Hickman has little regard for her. And I used to follow his Fantastic Four run so I do remember that in interviews he always used to say the usual drivel that was said back in the late 2000s/early 2010s that Jean needed to stay dead and she held Scott back as a man and leader and they were only childhood sweethearts and nothing more. He made very clear that he preferred the fake blonde which is also why he's brought her back from obscurity in his new run.

I remember someone telling about this promo with the couples, funny that Jean and Loga nwere never together to be reunited again.
bendis no doubt would write her if they let, but Jean couldn't even be alive outside of x-books. Quesada wanted to kill Jean popularity.

writers that are big fans of Emma Frost, you just can't trust them. First what Morrison did, then Quesada, Fraction.
Hickman did a pool about who was the Karen of x-men comics, he just deleted when Emma was winning it and Jean has less votes. It wasn't a joke at all.
Also he could get Jean off Scott since he doesn't like them together, but he wants to make her a basic housewife

Yes, I remembered they wanted to a Trilogy at the time. After Endsong was released I remember that one of the Marvel editor said they wanted to do a sequel with the same creative team (Pak and Land), and they didn't want to compromise that. Unfortunately, it's also and editor who asked for Warsong to be about the cuckoos. And we got that sequel, with an other artist, whose style has nothing to do with Greg Land's... If that matters, on any level, I bought Endsong but I never bought Warsong. The story felt forced.

Too many times, Marvel forgets that the Phoenix stories are more compelling with emotions attached to them. And those emotions are attached to Jean.

you know the editor is lying because nobody cares about land work, kirkham is a better penciller.

If they wanted to bring Jean on the third part they would have done, as Jean would bring sales high. he just covering the failure of not having Jean

[MechaJeanix]

Am I the only one that loves Jean Grey as Phoenix in name only without the Phoenix force but with the uniform and her pink energy powers? I loved it in the late 90’s when she would manifest a pink Phoenix raptor and reclaimed the costume as her own.
I also love stories the feature Jean and Ororo together, kicking ass.

On a side note, will Jean have a role in the X of Swords story? Seams unlikely and I’m just not hyped to read it.

I love pretty much all incarnations of Jean so while I loved her being Phoenix again fully in Morrison's run I also loved Jean with the Phoenix code-name only as she was prior. Jean had many good moments in the 90s and I love it when she's a badass tp/tk.

Since the phoenix became this cosmic std b.s. I'm glad that they made Jean an omega telepath in her own right. I like that she's powerful and capable with and without the Phoenix.

My fav version, as I've said a gazillion times is the Morrison version. She was a perfect blend of Jean Grey and Phoenix. She was the best version of herself as it were. I'd like to see the character return to something closer to this (a badass powerful psychic that happens to be plugged into a powerful source) ... which in a way seems to be what they are doing with Franklin (he's an omega level reality warper but it is hinted he may access a greater power the "god power" - but it remains to be seen and we will have to read to see what develops in X-men/FF to see where that might be going).

[franckd]

I remember all too well and I even brought this event up on this board a year ago or so and a few folks tried to deny it happened. That guy was a notorious shipper fan. Often the online Jean Grey fandom gets a bad rep but often it is the Scott/Jean shippers who tend to go overboard with their zealous obsession over a "ship". I don't get the fervor over romance and fictional (or non-fictional) pairings (no one will ever accuse me of being a romantic LOL - and I say that as someone who has been in a 12 + year relationship) so it is hard for me to relate.

All I can say to them is that the Morrison version of Jean Grey (to me) is the standard. It is the one I enjoy the most. It is the run I keep going back to re-read and especially if I need a pick me up. The only negative thing about Morrison's run is that it temporarily ruined most other X-men books for me (back then I couldn't read 90's X-men anymore or even some of Claremont's later work). That eventually wore off and I enjoy them all now, but New X-men to me will always be the best. Again it was also an exciting time in my life (it came out when I was a young college student enjoying life .. so I related to both Jean and Scott in that run just in different ways).

It's the same for me. For me, Grant Morrison was to the franchise what Bill Sienkiewicz was to comics artists : when I read his New Mutants, absolutely every other Marvel artists of the time felt flat and dull...

About the Jott shipper who sent death threats to Pak, I think he also really hurt Jean's fanbase's image at the time. Not that it was great before, but again, he really brought us down. And I think that some Marvel editors (and some writers) started to hate Jean because of her fanbase. Some of us are like 40 yo + toddlers : screaming, crying, complaining, having tantrums, instead of explaining or just asking. It's like we're unable to balance things, and be... polite? Civil? Human? I mean, there is two ways to say things to Marvel editors/writers :

- "You s*ck, you hate Jean Grey in favor of your fav, you have no talent,..."
or
- "I really enjoy your work, and I hope you'll give Jean Grey a little more panel time, with an exciting storyline"

If you were an editor or a writer, which one would you prefer? Some Jean's fans are so full of hate, that they're unable to even realize they're also responsible, on some level, for the fate of their fav, with such a negative energy.

They have to understand that their fav is everything to them, but not everything for a book. I will just say that I love Morrison's run like I love HoX/PoX. I sincerely think that Jonathan Hickman was the best thing that could happened to the franchise in ages. I love his take, I love his concepts. I enjoy the bigger picture here, even if the picture is far from being completed and revealed. Do I regret that Hickman doesn't seem to appreciate Jean? Yes. Do I regret that he doesn't have the same passion than Morrison for the character? Of course. Yet, I won't hate the run, or the DoX line because of it. My love for the franchise, for the characters, is more important than my fav. My fav, being alive in a boring story, with no depth, with no multi layers, is not interesting for me. Because at the end of the day, I'm not reading "Jean's shrine". I'm reading X-Men with Jean as a part of the dynamic.

[spirit2011]

Morrison's run has been the best X-men run by far. Most of the writers have been ok but never great. Most have been mediocre at best and that includes the beloved Claremont. * (edit to say I do love a lot of Claremont stories especially those centering Storm or Jean Grey).

it is your opinion.

Claremont did a much better run, simonson was also far more interesting

[whitecrown]

Morrison's run has been the best X-men run by far. Most of the writers have been ok but never great. Most have been mediocre at best and that includes the beloved Claremont.

Morrison's run had themes and layers. It was the intellectual book for those who wanted the X-men to be something more than a run of the mill superhero book. The book had style and substance. Jean Grey had an entire subplot that ran through the entire run. She was confident, capable, powerful and best of yet her story wasn't all about Scott. He had his own plot through the series. Morrison put Jean and the Phoenix back together again and I can't convey what New X-men 154 meant to me.

I loved the entire run - every last issue. I loved the stories that didn't involve Jean such as Riot at Xaviers and Assault on Weapon plus.

I know some hate the run because he killed Jean and then the shipper folks hate it because he ruined Scott/Jean as a pairing, but its ridiculous to reduce the run to those two things. It was so much more.

Jean had so many awesome moments: her interactions with Cassandra, her fighting the U-Men, her fight with Emma, displaying the Phoenix, her death by Wolverine going into the Sun. She had many moments of compassion (for Emma, Beak, Beast, Xorneto, Dust, etc). I loved all the scenes she had with Beast and Xavier.

Until recently (Bendis Teen Jean story, Jean Grey solo and X-men Red) the most attention Jean got storywise where she was centered was in Claremont's original Phoenix saga and then Morrison's New X-men. Jean has good moments in other eras but she didn't always have her own story (in the 90's she shared stories with Scott that often involved their time lost kids).
She did have good moments in other 90's stories (the numerous crossovers) and a few single issues (such as X-men 28).

There are many of us who love the Morrison run and while some have expressed exhaustion at the amount of hate it gets (especially at times in this thread) I would encourage them to participate anyway and always feel welcome to discuss the run. When it came out the majority of folks on this board and every X-men message board that I was aware of loved the run. The few fans who didn't enjoy it usually read Xtreme X-men (not everyone is going to enjoy the same things and that is ok).

To be fair a lot of X-Men fans were not a fan of Morrison's run when it came out and felt it went against everything the X-Men had been since their inception. A lot of fans stopped reading the book then or cut off their personal canon there and I've seen sales reports for the X-Men and while they were always the top selling books in the 90s, that changed by the time of Morrison's run and for good reason. They weren't the X-Men anymore but look alikes who didn't even act like the original characters. I mean Cat Beast anyone? Scott and Jean were fine in Eve of Destruction but suddenly they aren't a couple anymore and he's shacking up with somebody only pretending to be 27 years old when she clearly wasn't intended that way as confirmed by her creators? When X-Men mainstays like Chris Claremont and John Byrne are disillusioned with the turn of events and claim this isn't their X-Men, I'd be far more inclined to believe them since the only reason the X-Men you love even exist is because of the work that people like those two put in to make the X-Men a top-selling book. And there's a reason the movies, TV shows, etc. all adapted from Claremont's run, not from Morrison's and in fact Morrison's run was an attempt to synergize with the films so it doesn't even have that originality.

I actually love a lot of Jean moments in Morrison's run but at the end of the day, a few issues of greatness don't amount to 12 or so years (however long she was gone) of Jean being killed off. At least during her original death, there was an integrity to her death and a legitimate reason as to why she had to have died and they brought her back the second they could. That clearly wasn't the case in the 2000s/2010s and Morrison's run is what cemented Jean's demise. So a few cool power stunts or moments of characterization don't mean much to me because at the end of the day what they're reduced to is the fact that this same writer is responsible for Jean being put into character limbo for more than a decade and turning the rest of Marvel editorial against her. Not a small thing at all.

Many of us here also love Emma Frost. We are fans of both. Jean is my main favorite and I'm a die-hard Jean Grey fan but I love almost all the X-men characters and that includes Frost. Some of us hate the 'fan wars' and factions in the fandom. We long for the day that kind of behavior goes away.

Well love for her should be constrained to her appreciation thread since that's the whole point it exists. I don't go to her appreciation thread to talk about how much I love Jean there. It's as simple as that really especially since many Jean fans have legitimate reasons not to like a psychic serial rapist and child murderer.