Jean Grey: Phoenix/Marvel Girl Appreciation 2020

[whitecrown]

I've never heard that before -- what's the source of this tidbit?

Here are some good links to read for that. But the basic premise is that before Ms. Marvel was cancelled, the unpublished issues (later on published in the 90s as Marvel Superheroes 10 and 11) depicted Carol Danvers running into the Hellfire Club and the Brotherhood of Mutants. Both groups were supposed to debut in Ms. Marvel but the book's cancellation meant we didn't see them until UXM for the Dark Phoenix Saga and Days of Future Past respectively. Carol has a vision where she's the Black Queen of the Hellfire Club and brutally beats up Rogue, which was tied into a later story that Claremont mentioned in his UXM run as something he would go back and fill in (although he never did) which featured Sebastian Shaw brutally beating up Rogue. Shaw also sent Tessa to spy on Carol Danvers because she factored into his plans so the implication was that he wanted her as his Black Queen and when the book was cancelled, Claremont brought these plans over for Jean in UXM.

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/marv...65632#p1065632
http://www.supermegamonkey.net/chron...eroes_11.shtml

[whitecrown]

https://www.cbr.com/comic-legends-th...hat-never-was/
BTW, a lot of people were asking about that Dark Phoenix meets Silver Surfer story that was originally planned and I finally found a source for that. John Byrne wanted to depict their meeting in The Dark Phoenix Saga as the 25th issue of X-Men: The Hidden Years.

[whitecrown]

This is absolutely true, i have seen people being angry at the character for being to "perfect" but then critizing when her does something different or has an actitude.

I remember reading comments on a YT video of Logan/Jean and fans of Cyclops or even just X-men fans calling her a bad Wife/Woman for having "something" with Logan but ignoring all the bad things Cyclops did with Madelyne, Emma, Jean etc.

Cyclops fans in my experience tend to be the most misogynistic of any male X-Man fandom (not that some of the female ones are much better). They hate Jean and don't want her with Scott but they also view her as his property and what they hate even more is the idea that Jean would be with any man who isn't Scott. They caused multiple scenes when Jean was revealed to have lost her virginity to Ted Roberts in X-Men: Grand Design or when Logan and Jean were married, had a daughter, and were running Xavier's school in Spider-Man: Renew Your Vows. His fandom really turned me against Scott completely in a way that not even the character did and that's saying something.

[Cruelrain]

If i have to choose between Logan or Scott i chose Logan idc

I prefer her without a man tho

[whitecrown]

If i have to choose between Logan or Scott i chose Logan idc

I prefer her without a man tho

Same. I like her with Logan or Warren.

A single Jean is fine with me as well since unlike Scott she has no issue being single and doesn't need to be attached to someone all the time.

[spirit2011]

Here are some good links to read for that. But the basic premise is that before Ms. Marvel was cancelled, the unpublished issues (later on published in the 90s as Marvel Superheroes 10 and 11) depicted Carol Danvers running into the Hellfire Club and the Brotherhood of Mutants. Both groups were supposed to debut in Ms. Marvel but the book's cancellation meant we didn't see them until UXM for the Dark Phoenix Saga and Days of Future Past respectively. Carol has a vision where she's the Black Queen of the Hellfire Club and brutally beats up Rogue, which was tied into a later story that Claremont mentioned in his UXM run as something he would go back and fill in (although he never did) which featured Sebastian Shaw brutally beating up Rogue. Shaw also sent Tessa to spy on Carol Danvers because she factored into his plans so the implication was that he wanted her as his Black Queen and when the book was cancelled, Claremont brought these plans over for Jean in UXM.

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/marv...65632#p1065632
http://www.supermegamonkey.net/chron...eroes_11.shtml

This is really interesting, I had no idea thi sstory was suppossed to be originally about Carol

[whitecrown]

This is really interesting, I had no idea thi sstory was suppossed to be originally about Carol

It's amazing how much they have in common, between this storyline, their codenames, and Carol turning into Binary and her powerset then. This is a great article for fans of the two.
https://nerdist.com/article/captain-...lel-histories/

[spirit2011]

Cyclops fans in my experience tend to be the most misogynistic of any male X-Man fandom (not that some of the female ones are much better). They hate Jean and don't want her with Scott but they also view her as his property and what they hate even more is the idea that Jean would be with any man who isn't Scott. They caused multiple scenes when Jean was revealed to have lost her virginity to Ted Roberts in X-Men: Grand Design or when Logan and Jean were married, had a daughter, and were running Xavier's school in Spider-Man: Renew Your Vows. His fandom really turned me against Scott completely in a way that not even the character did and that's saying something.

I don't think it is all fans, but a important segment of Cyclops fans are like that. i think that years of misogynist stories really attract this kind of public, who could had thought this lOL
They don't want Jean paired with Scott, but also freak out everytime Jean get paired on a AU story that isn't Scott. They act like Jean is property of Scott, even saw some saying that they should adapt Astonishing because Jean is better dead
that is why Whedon, Morrison run belong on the bottom of X-men runs

Morrison and Austen had the two core X-Men books. X-Treme X-Men was a spinoff title. Wolverine was also not a lead in X-Treme X-Men unlike the other two books so you can imagine which ones got pushed.

That is a huge reason Claremont got lower sales, but his book was better than austen and Morrison

[WallStreeter]

Jean will be recast for MCU. She will start out as Marvel Girl too. Disney is distancing itself from the Fox failures which should have ended with DOFP.

I wonder who play Jean this time? They say both Famke and Sophie are transgender posers, so I would like they get a real woman this time.

I’d love to see her eventually become the cosmic hero Phoenix too.

[Cruelrain]

Famke did so well with what she was offered, never liked Sophie's Jean.

I hope the MCU casts a red head (at least with dyed hair) since it seems they have something against read heads in Hollywood

[Havok83]

????? Famke and Sophie are not transgender. Both are "real" women

Famke did so well with what she was offered, never liked Sophie's Jean.

I hope the MCU casts a red head (at least with dyed hair) since it seems they have something against read heads in Hollywood

BW had red hair in the MCU though

[spirit2011]

I don't see much people talking about Austen's run, except for a good laugh, time to time. But I know a few fans who enjoyed it (I did not)

it still is remembered, tat is better than many runs that are completely forgotten.

Sure, some people who hates the run never miss an opportunity to trash it. It's like they don't want to let it go. Again, you're reducing the run to a relationship.
And it's such a bold claim to say that "nobody" would give a crap. It's like claiming that Morrison's sales were bad. It's not facts.

I'm not reducing anything, that is what Morrison wrote. His run isn't really complex.
people only talk because he created polemic thought bad soap opera elements.

Just a note : quality is not about what you like or don't. Quality is not always about sales. Rob Liefeld X-Force sales were huge, yet it's still one of the biggest cr*p I have ever read.
But I won't judge Synder's X-Men as I haven't read it and I'm totally opened to the idea that his run was good. I even think I will look for back issues.

Sales are what matter most, if it sells counter beans will be happy and everything will be right.

I was talking about Snyder run on Batman.

[nx01a]

...but this Jean Grey and Cyclops fan wants them to be happy together while still having their own independence and great stories not necessarily including the other. Them sharing Logan as a sexy time plaything would be a bonus.

[Cruelrain]

Someone has to

[whitecrown]

I don't think it is all fans, but a important segment of Cyclops fans are like that. i think that years of misogynist stories really attract this kind of public, who could had thought this lOL
They don't want Jean paired with Scott, but also freak out everytime Jean get paired on a AU story that isn't Scott. They act like Jean is property of Scott, even saw some saying that they should adapt Astonishing because Jean is better dead
that is why Whedon, Morrison run belong on the bottom of X-men runs



That is a huge reason Claremont got lower sales, but his book was better than austen and Morrison

True, I've known some good Cyclops fans who liked the classic boy scout version of him and hate what he's become, I suppose like Teen Cyke.

I always used to think X-Men fans would be more tolerant and less keen on adopting misogynistic and racist practices but that clearly isn't the case as Storm fans will also admit to. Haha, I love how they think they can get rid of Jean in the MCU like that's going to happen. Astonishing X-Men did have an adaptation in X-Men: The Last Stand and it was critically reviled. Nor was it loved enough to stand the test of time and get another adaptation, unlike the classic Dark Phoenix Saga.

I have no love for any X-Men run that belittled Jean and her legacy, especially when the writers so obviously feel that way.