Jean Grey: Phoenix/Marvel Girl Appreciation 2020

[whitecrown]

It was editors fault, she just had to wrote it. Not all writers have greenlight like Morrison had. Even Claremont had to accept that
She also wrote good soap opera drama, as she is a woman that can write relationships well.

Simonson inherited the problem and dealt with it in the most tasteful way possible. Morrison manufactured events to the point that every character was unrecognizable just to shake things up and then called Jean a bad wife.

[Celestialbodies]

I never knew Carey was a Jean fan and I'd like to have seen what he had planned for her.

Bendis I know was a Jean fan which doesn't surprise me because he seems to love the 70s characters based on how he brought back characters like Luke Cage, Spider-Woman, Ms. Marvel, and Iron Fist so Phoenix Jean came from that same era. Bendis also inserted Jean into Jessica Jones' origin which I thought was neat and branched Jean out into the wider Marvel Universe. Jessica Jones was originally supposed to be Jessica Drew so I would have preferred that because it would have tied two Claremontian women together and put Jean that much closer to Carol Danvers since Jessica Drew is her bestie.

This was also teased during Secret Invasion so it does seem like Bendis would have brought back Jean if he could have much earlier.


X-Men Red and X-Men Dissassembled was a good platform for Jean because it used her as the leader and face of the X-Men but unfortunately Hickman has little regard for her. And I used to follow his Fantastic Four run so I do remember that in interviews he always used to say the usual drivel that was said back in the late 2000s/early 2010s that Jean needed to stay dead and she held Scott back as a man and leader and they were only childhood sweethearts and nothing more. He made very clear that he preferred the fake blonde which is also why he's brought her back from obscurity in his new run.

This may be the biggest reason I resent how Hickman is using Jean, take Emma the character and her relationship to Jean out of the equation. Hickman used HOX/POX a major relaunch which would have a great deal of attention to go out of his way and not only increase Emma's visibility within the X-men but also make her an equal to Xavier & Magneto. I get that he's a fan of hers and has the choice to write whatever he wants, but he has the ability to write complex female characters. So why he'd ignore literally ALL the recent developments Jean has had to repackage her as Marvel Girl but worst rob her of a lot of the agency she had is baffling. What makes it worse for me is, Jean is no longer a student and hasn't been for years I just don't understand why she can't step out of Xavier's shadow and into roles that we've seen in X-men Red. I can't express enough how much it bothered me in HOX her screaming "PROFESSOR, WHAT DO WE DO?" as if she's not been in dire situations before moreover, why can't she refer to him as Charles?

Didn't he made Jean go Pink form against Galactus? eye

I agree, Bendis comics don't make a lot of sense sometimes and has so much PIS, like HoM or when Sentry defeated somehow Molecule Man lol

That was Bunn, and tbf she was absorbing the powers of the PF, Galactus, and an entire planet, getting one hit in isn't bad. Especially because much much less has harmed Galactus in the past.

For all that the X-Women are celebrated in fandom, they've been written pretty poorly across the board for quite some time, and that includes under Morrison who basically treated Jean and Emma as stand-ins for his own personal relationship drama.

Honestly, it never ceases to amaze me for how diverse, eclectic, and interesting the X-women are they rarely receive the attention their male counterparts do, and even in cases such as Rogue/Carey. There isn't long-term attention or development, I mean Jean or nor Storm have ever received the kind of focus of Scott or Logan as consistently. Of course a case could be made for Logan because of his popularity, but I mean even in relation to each other, outside of Red when is the last time a story revolved around Jean and Storm's friendship? Hell, I don't think they've had much interaction since HOX/POX.

I don't think either was portrayed poorly in the run and again the relationship drama was only a portion of the run. Claremont also used relationship drama. When Scott believed Jean to be dead he had a brief thing with Lee Forrester. Some fans get up in arms due to the times writers had Scott say something negative about Jean during his time with Emma, but in the Claremont days Scott told Storm he felt nothing for Jean when he believed she was dead. To him she pretty much died on the Shuttle.

Simonson, who most of us enjoyed wrote a lot of relationship drama between Scott and Jean in X-factor. She wrote the scenes of Jean thinking to herself and bashing Maddie (if you look at the fan letter pages at least some fans reacting very negative to it and did not like Jean for it).

The 90's writers wrote the Scott flirtation with Psylocke. This is pretty standard stuff (though I agree with most of you it can be annoying but for those of us who date and have relationships we know drama can and does happen).

My main point is that the X-men are a soap opera and thus relationship drama in some form will exist. Jean and Emma's drama did come to a head when they fought but there were other times they interacted with each other that did not involve Scott. There were times they worked together as X-men.

I know some folks cling to the Emma's characterization in Generation X, and while it was fine it was largely boring. Morrison gave her a very distinct personality and made her shine in a way she hadn't before. He gave her depth. My favorite aspect of Emma is that she will stand up and get in your face even though she knows she's going to take a beat down (example Emma not backing down to Jean when Jean catches her and Scott).

In Morrison's run we again saw that Emma was a teacher and cared for her students. She doesn't always do the right thing or always have the most healthy interactions but she does care about her students and cares about mutants. I loved her friendship with Beast in the series.

As for Jean we've discussed her portrayal at length. I know some fans don't like it when Jean is perfect but some don't like it when she's not. I liked that Jean was brutal with Emma because most people have a breaking point or can have a bad day and go too far. I've also seen some Jean fans on X-twitter criticize Jean's brutality with the U-Men, but these were guys who came to a school to murder children. Morrison's Jean had her trademark empathy and compassion but she was also tough. Morrison made Jean a leader of the school when Xavier was in space (actually Cassandra). She had her press conference. She had the big moment where she stored Xavier's mind in hers. She helped set up X-corp offices and was in the Fantomex intro story. I know I'm beating a dead horse but there was so much more than the relationship drama.

Superficially, I loved how Jean was defined/described by other characters: not knowing her own strength as said by Emma, being a grown up omega mutant on Richter Scale, she'd be a 12, and if she was a mountain, she'd be Olympus Mons on Mars as described by Beast, etc. Also I loved all the phoenix moments and her quotes "born in blood and flame and sacrifice". The scenes in Here Comes Tomorrow where Jean was floating near towers in space was a reference to the Classic X-men backstory that Claremont wrote where Jean as White Phoenix talks with death. Morrison did his homework with Jean.

Did Morrison love the Emma character? Of course. Did he love Scott with Emma? Of course that is obvious. I don't know whether he cared for Jean or not as it isn't important because he did right by the character IMO.
Yes he killed her, but with the phoenix element she could have been brought back at any time if any editor approved. As others noted she was brought back for Phoenix Endsong in 2005. Here Comes Tomorrow was in 2004. Jean died in New X-men 150 in 2003.

All of this, which is why Morrison Jean will always be my favorite way too often the "nice" character is written really naive, and unaware of the world around them. Until their "broken" in the story and they undergo a change to be "cooler". I feel like Jean has a level of complexity that is often mistaken for "bland or boring" because she's the nice one. Writers don't feel the need to give characters like that an edge all the development and nuance goes to those who are cynical, or pragmatic. But I feel like he balanced her compassion with her conviction without going overboard in either direction, something we've seen all too well since she's returned. Taylor and Percy have come close to capturing it but she hasn't had enough consistent focus for much of her development to stick. Then the larger issue is someone like Hickman essentially resetting her characterization without including so much of what previous writers have done with her. I don't know maybe its asking for too much, I know the world sucks sometimes, but Jean is one of my favorite characters across fiction because in spite of the harshness of the world she chooses to be good. I just wish that writers would explore that more, the dichotomy of having the power to bend the world around you but making a conscious effort to spread warmth and kindness without being gullible to the real issues that effects people living in it.

To break a bit about sales, what i want for Jean Grey:

3 stop namor from using Phoenix by reclaiming it

God I forgot that was happening, I will honestly NEVER understand how writer have 101 ideas for applying the PF to literally anyone except Jean. Yet, no one can come up with an idea that actually allows the woman who made the damn bird famous to actually use it in a meaningful and consistent way that's in line with her history....

[whitecrown]

Wait, Namor is getting the Phoenix now...again?

[Celestialbodies]

Wait, Namor is getting the Phoenix now...again?

I hated even posting this, God I've hated literally everything Jason Aaron has done with the PF he has not a single clue as to what it is except an excuse to attach it to random characters.

Here's another of his great ideas....Phoenix Wolverine I mean of all the ideas this is what he comes up with

[whitecrown]

I liked Jason Aaron's work on WATXM but this is pretty pathetic. Didn't Thanos have the Phoenix as well for a while?

[WallStreeter]

Thanos’s son Thane has the Phoenix. In story since the Phoenix’s prime host(Jean Grey) doesn’t want it of course it’s going to be busy elsewhere and someone else will claim the power.

Maybe if Namor does something heinous Jean will realize she has to take the Phoenix to prevent some nutjob from abusing the power.

Kind of why sort of realized Cain Marko has to be Juggernaut. He has his issues, yes. But he keeps a truly evil person from becoming Cytorrak’s avatar. These powers will always go somewhere.

I did like when Aaron reintroduced the Phoenix in Thor. When the Shi’ar gods summoned her. I like it’s conversations with Odín. But with that said Jean Grey is the true Phoenix. Look at how many times she has died and resurrected, both with and without the Phoenix.

At the same time the X-Men/mutants are still undergoing world building and I understand why Jean is not Phoenix yet. There’s got to be more buildup.

Maybe as the Dominions get more aggressive Jean will be Phoenix.

I do notice Rachel uses her Phoenix powers. Jean atomized those plant people with her pink powers, the first time we saw adult Jean do anything like that.

I did like the One shot where Jean and go into Storm’s mind. They could at least let Jean use that costume.

[Veitha]

I hate that Aaron uses the Phoenix Force as if it was the Nova Force or the Enigma Force. It's supposed to be the Life Force incarnation and up there with Galactus and the other Abstracts, but this way it's like a Green Lantern Ring. And it should be a primal force of Nature so making it romantic with Odin is dumb (also, it takes away from her relationship with Jean and with Jean's passion/emotions if it's just been acting like a human for ages before the DPS).

What I'd like and what I hope Hickman does is tying the Phoenix only to mutant psychics, since it's also a psionic force and it makes sense for it to be drawn to powerful psychics. And Jean being the Omega TP should be her favourite avatar/have a special relationship with the Phoenix.

[loke13]

Simonson inherited the problem and dealt with it in the most tasteful way possible. Morrison manufactured events to the point that every character was unrecognizable just to shake things up and then called Jean a bad wife.

I never got the impression that Morrison was trying to portray Jean as the "bad wife" more so he just wanted to portray a marriage that had run its course.

[Havok83]

I do notice Rachel uses her Phoenix powers. Jean atomized those plant people with her pink powers, the first time we saw adult Jean do anything like that.

Once again, no she didnt

This:



is not this:

[franckd]

I never got the impression that Morrison was trying to portray Jean as the "bad wife" more so he just wanted to portray a marriage that had run its course.

I agree. It's just some fans projecting intentions that the writer surely never had.
I have read once, a fan saying that writers hated Jean and loved Emma because they wanted to sleep with her. I just rolled my eyes.
Its nothing more than accusations. Nothing based on facts or reality.

[Fall-From-Grace]

[QUOTE=Havok83;5017138]





Ooh, quick question guys, what exactly is Jean doing here? Is she... ''incinerating'' them with her TK ( kinda phoenix-like)? Or do you think it has something to do with her manipulating these creatures' atoms? Anyway, one hell of a page! This and her psychic projection of what happened to Maddox are my favorite Jean scenes so far .

[MechaJeanix]

I hate that Aaron uses the Phoenix Force as if it was the Nova Force or the Enigma Force. It's supposed to be the Life Force incarnation and up there with Galactus and the other Abstracts, but this way it's like a Green Lantern Ring. And it should be a primal force of Nature so making it romantic with Odin is dumb (also, it takes away from her relationship with Jean and with Jean's passion/emotions if it's just been acting like a human for ages before the DPS).

What I'd like and what I hope Hickman does is tying the Phoenix only to mutant psychics, since it's also a psionic force and it makes sense for it to be drawn to powerful psychics. And Jean being the Omega TP should be her favourite avatar/have a special relationship with the Phoenix.

This.

Wouldnt it be cool if Nanny had abducted Jean's niece and nephew and has been raising them since they were presumed dead? I dont know how to make sense of that but it is something I want

I would love to see them brought back in some way.. I'd probably go the cerebro/resurrection route since it was sort of hinted that they might be mutants.

[Cruelrain]

[QUOTE=Fall-From-Grace;5017191]

Ooh, quick question guys, what exactly is Jean doing here? Is she... ''incinerating'' them with her TK ( kinda phoenix-like)? Or do you think it has something to do with her manipulating these creatures' atoms? Anyway, one hell of a page! This and her psychic projection of what happened to Maddox are my favorite Jean scenes so far .

I want to be believe she's erasing them at molecular level

[franckd]

I want to be believe she's erasing them at molecular level

Same for me.

Maybe it's the same process she used when she was attacking Cassandra Nova, when Scott told her to think about molecules around Cassandra, and making them turn faster and faster

[spirit2011]

I agree. It's just some fans projecting intentions that the writer surely never had.
I have read once, a fan saying that writers hated Jean and loved Emma because they wanted to sleep with her. I just rolled my eyes.
Its nothing more than accusations. Nothing based on facts or reality.

Morrison really said that Jean was a bad wife and that what Scott did wasn't cheating because Jean was a bad wife.

Seeing how much writers sexualized Emma, I have little doubt on it

Simonson inherited the problem and dealt with it in the most tasteful way possible. Morrison manufactured events to the point that every character was unrecognizable just to shake things up and then called Jean a bad wife.

Morrison created a new paralel reality where Scott and Jean were highschool sweethearts and never raiseda family on a apocalyptic future,.
then people call it good writing. This is even worse than Johns big retcons