Jean Grey: Phoenix/Marvel Girl Appreciation 2020

[franckd]

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ not on the mood, Morrison interviews give me pTSD

How convenient, again :-) Claiming this and that, and never back it up with actual proof, and then, find any excuse possible to not provide proof.

it's not traumatic for all. now use a possession that was mostly resolved to retcon all the couple story is bad writing

Oh, I don't know. All the women I know who unfortunately were raped, still talk about it like a traumatic event that destroyed something in them.
But if you say that rape is not traumatic for all, well, why not. I havent met all the victims of the world. But even if some people were not traumatized by rape, does it automatically mean that the others can't be traumatized?

If an evil possession, in a book, is not traumatic for one character, does it mean that it can't be traumatic for an other?

[PwrdOn]

Scott Summers was also impressed by his too “perfect” wife although it wasn't Jean's fault that she has been put on a pedestal.
A imperfect Emma was more of his level and it was easier for him to open his heart.

If you really want to get deep in the weeds here though, this story is like a picture perfect example of the madonna-whore complex in action. Scott is attracted to Emma specifically because she's beneath him, her aristocratic pretensions notwithstanding, and thus is disposable, someone who he can use for his own needs without ever giving a thought to hers, and who can be unceremoniously cast aside when she ceases to be useful to him. Of course, you could never picture him, or any other character for that matter, treating Jean this way, even with the Dark Phoenix baggage she's still the embodiment of purity and perfection that's eternally on the highest pedestal.

And to some extent, this sort of dynamic is at work out of universe as well. Emma is, for all of the spotlight she got during the Rightclops era, a secondary character to the franchise that can be put into any random story and treated like a joke without really raising any eyebrows, which paradoxically makes her a pretty versatile character because writers aren't afraid to throw her in some arbitrary setting just to get slapped around. But Jean, on the other hand, must be the center of attention whenever and wherever she appears, and there are only so many stories you can tell about someone who is loved and admired by all.

[spirit2011]

If you really want to get deep in the weeds here though, this story is like a picture perfect example of the madonna-whore complex in action. Scott is attracted to Emma specifically because she's beneath him, her aristocratic pretensions notwithstanding, and thus is disposable, someone who he can use for his own needs without ever giving a thought to hers, and who can be unceremoniously cast aside when she ceases to be useful to him. Of course, you could never picture him, or any other character for that matter, treating Jean this way, even with the Dark Phoenix baggage she's still the embodiment of purity and perfection that's eternally on the highest pedestal.

And to some extent, this sort of dynamic is at work out of universe as well. Emma is, for all of the spotlight she got during the Rightclops era, a secondary character to the franchise that can be put into any random story and treated like a joke without really raising any eyebrows, which paradoxically makes her a pretty versatile character because writers aren't afraid to throw her in some arbitrary setting just to get slapped around. But Jean, on the other hand, must be the center of attention whenever and wherever she appears, and there are only so many stories you can tell about someone who is loved and admired by all.

It's not like that, Jean end up Morrison run as a complete loser.

How convenient, again :-) Claiming this and that, and never back it up with actual proof, and then, find any excuse possible to not provide proof.



Oh, I don't know. All the women I know who unfortunately were raped, still talk about it like a traumatic event that destroyed something in them.
But if you say that rape is not traumatic for all, well, why not. I havent met all the victims of the world. But even if some people were not traumatized by rape, does it automatically mean that the others can't be traumatized?

If an evil possession, in a book, is not traumatic for one character, does it mean that it can't be traumatic for an other?

who chooses that? wha tif it wasn't traumatic for Scott? it would be wrong? I don't think so

[franckd]

who chooses that? wha tif it wasn't traumatic for Scott? it would be wrong? I don't think so

Sure, you think whatever you want... But like it or not, Scott's possession by Apocalypse had consequences on him.
I personally think it was better than a "I was mind raped for months, but that was a great ride"

It's not like that, Jean end up Morrison run as a complete loser.

Jean, as the White Phoenix of the crown saved humanity and mutankind from a terrible future. Not that bad for a so called loser.

[Harpsikord]

It's not like that, Jean end up Morrison run as a complete loser.

Yes, Jean dies at the end of Morrison's run but to imply that she ends it anything close to being a loser is quite literally a lie. That's literally inventing something to fit your narrative when the truth of the matter is that there was no single character that was actively elevated during that run like Jean Grey was. Even if you agree with the idea that she was almost treated as perfect, which I don't, saying that she was a loser goes against all of that. In Morrison's run Jean: stopped the U-Men almost single-handedly when tapping into the Phoenix power for the first time since the Dark Phoenix saga, survived against and helped stop Weapon XI while also being one of the only ones that survived that encounter, helped stop Cassandra Nova and saves Charles Xavier's life multiple times, including taking his entire mind into her own (at the expense of some of his memories, but still), held her own against Shi'Ar super soldiers, single-handedly pieced Emma Frost back together, revived herself and Logan with the Phoenix Force after Asteroid M flew into the sun, converted Asteroid M's remaining metals into a space ship which she then used to travel the immense space between the sun and Earth, saved the rest of the team, and is the entire reason that they were even able to get to Earth to stop Magneto... where she was the only one that could stand up to him, and only died because he got in a lucky hit. And then after she died, because everyone seems to forget that this was our Jean, she woke up in a dystopian reality that using the power of the Phoenix Force she destroyed and then prevented.

Morrison's run was Jean Grey's best consistent showing in a long time, and that's coming from someone that doesn't hate 90s Jean.

[franckd]

Yes, Jean dies at the end of Morrison's run but to imply that she ends it anything close to being a loser is quite literally a lie. That's literally inventing something to fit your narrative when the truth of the matter is that there was no single character that was actively elevated during that run like Jean Grey was. Even if you agree with the idea that she was almost treated as perfect, which I don't, saying that she was a loser goes against all of that. In Morrison's run Jean: stopped the U-Men almost single-handedly when tapping into the Phoenix power for the first time since the Dark Phoenix saga, survived against and helped stop Weapon XI while also being one of the only ones that survived that encounter, helped stop Cassandra Nova and saves Charles Xavier's life multiple times, including taking his entire mind into her own (at the expense of some of his memories, but still), held her own against Shi'Ar super soldiers, single-handedly pieced Emma Frost back together, revived herself and Logan with the Phoenix Force after Asteroid M flew into the sun, converted Asteroid M's remaining metals into a space ship which she then used to travel the immense space between the sun and Earth, saved the rest of the team, and is the entire reason that they were even able to get to Earth to stop Magneto... where she was the only one that could stand up to him, and only died because he got in a lucky hit. And then after she died, because everyone seems to forget that this was our Jean, she woke up in a dystopian reality that using the power of the Phoenix Force she destroyed and then prevented.

Morrison's run was Jean Grey's best consistent showing in a long time, and that's coming from someone that doesn't hate 90s Jean.

I agree, Jean Grey was amazing during this run.

Also, there is something very interesting about this run. It was also about "in" versus "out". And "new" versus "old". Sublime was an allegory of what the editors were.
- Mutants were writers, artists : creating, embracing new ideas. Murants were evolution.
- Sublime was that sentient bacteria who couldn't stand Mutants. Meaning, he was a metaphor for the editors who are stuck in the past (like some readers) and don't want new things.

When Jean died on asteroid M, she came back as Phoenix. Yet she said "I don't know how long they will let me stay". That "they" - I think - was also a subliminal message for us, readers. Oh, you see : Sublime. Subliminal...

Grant Morrison's run was very clever.

[spirit2011]

Yes, Jean dies at the end of Morrison's run but to imply that she ends it anything close to being a loser is quite literally a lie. That's literally inventing something to fit your narrative when the truth of the matter is that there was no single character that was actively elevated during that run like Jean Grey was. Even if you agree with the idea that she was almost treated as perfect, which I don't, saying that she was a loser goes against all of that. In Morrison's run Jean: stopped the U-Men almost single-handedly when tapping into the Phoenix power for the first time since the Dark Phoenix saga, survived against and helped stop Weapon XI while also being one of the only ones that survived that encounter, helped stop Cassandra Nova and saves Charles Xavier's life multiple times, including taking his entire mind into her own (at the expense of some of his memories, but still), held her own against Shi'Ar super soldiers, single-handedly pieced Emma Frost back together, revived herself and Logan with the Phoenix Force after Asteroid M flew into the sun, converted Asteroid M's remaining metals into a space ship which she then used to travel the immense space between the sun and Earth, saved the rest of the team, and is the entire reason that they were even able to get to Earth to stop Magneto... where she was the only one that could stand up to him, and only died because he got in a lucky hit. And then after she died, because everyone seems to forget that this was our Jean, she woke up in a dystopian reality that using the power of the Phoenix Force she destroyed and then prevented.

Morrison's run was Jean Grey's best consistent showing in a long time, and that's coming from someone that doesn't hate 90s Jean.

That is enough to be a loser.

then she end dead, emma steals her husband and she dies alone.

yeah jean did some nice things but nothing that I would say "damn I'm will be her fan" like it was X-men Red or Bendis run with Jeen. There is a lack of chaarcter on Morrison run, Jean lacks some sauce

[franckd]

That is enough to be a loser.

then she end dead, emma steals her husband and she dies alone.

yeah jean did some nice things but nothing that I would say "damn I'm will be her fan" like it was X-men Red or Bendis run with Jeen. There is a lack of chaarcter on Morrison run, Jean lacks some sauce

She ends up as a Goddess in the Phoenix Corp.

[spirit2011]

She ends up as a Goddess in the Phoenix Corp.

and it does nothing for the character. It is irrelevant as she was DEAD

Sure, you think whatever you want... But like it or not, Scott's possession by Apocalypse had consequences on him.
I personally think it was better than a "I was mind raped for months, but that was a great ride"

it wasn't great to retcon entire chaarcters relationships

Jean, as the White Phoenix of the crown saved humanity and mutankind from a terrible future. Not that bad for a so called loser.

bad that nobody really acknowledge that, specially that the saving was put her husband to sleep with her enemy.
so much win for Jean grey

[franckd]

That is enough to be a loser.

then she end dead, emma steals her husband and she dies alone.

Again, can you please stop lying? She didn't died alone. That's not how it was written : she ended up dying in Scott's arms. Scott was crying over her. He did quit the team, he ended his relation with Emma. Then, Jean as the White Phoenix of the crown told him to live, and influenced him in staying with Emma. Again, you have the right to hate the story, but that's how it was written. Don't change the narrative to fit to your interpretations.

[spirit2011]

Again, can you please stop lying? She didn't died alone. That's not how it was written : she ended up dying in Scott's arms. Scott was crying over her. He did quit the team, he ended his relation with Emma. Then, Jean as the White Phoenix of the crown told him to live, and influenced him in staying with Emma. Again, you have the right to hate the story, but that's how it was written. Don't change the narrative to fit to your interpretations.

Dead is experienced always alone, even if on the arms of somebody. Scott didn't died together with her, so she died alone. That is how I process dead

[franckd]

and it does nothing for the character. It is irrelevant as she was DEAD

He wrote it that way. The fact that Marvel's writers didn't follow up was not up to Grant Morrison's responsibility.
Also, he implanted the Phoenix Egg, in the story, as a way to easily bring Jean back. But they decided not to.

bad that nobody really acknowledge that, specially that the saving was put her husband to sleep with her enemy.
so much win for Jean grey

Yet, it's still canon.

[Micabe]

Again, can you please stop lying? She didn't died alone. That's not how it was written : she ended up dying in Scott's arms. Scott was crying over her. He did quit the team, he ended his relation with Emma. Then, Jean as the White Phoenix of the crown told him to live, and influenced him in staying with Emma. Again, you have the right to hate the story, but that's how it was written. Don't change the narrative to fit to your interpretations.

And, now that Jean is back who is Emma sleeping with?

[franckd]

Dead is experienced always alone, even if on the arms of somebody. Scott didn't died together with her, so she died alone. That is how I process dead

Well, are you aware that most of couples - God, what am i saying? - the HUGE majority of couples don't die at the same time? You need Jean and Scott to die at the very same time to be happy? You know that if Jean didn't die, if Scott stayed with her, there was only a tiny, very tiny chance that they would die together? :-) So what's your point?

[spirit2011]

He wrote it that way. The fact that Marvel's writers didn't follow up was not up to Grant Morrison's responsibility.
Also, he implanted the Phoenix Egg, in the story, as a way to easily bring Jean back. But they decided not to.

of course it is. Nobody even follow Morrison bad ideas.

it was so obvious that it wouldbe be followed upon

Yet, it's still canon.

It still awful and humiliating for Jean

Well, are you aware that most of couples - God, what am i saying? - the HUGE majority of couples don't die at the same time? You need Jean and Scott to die at the very same time to be happy? You know that if Jean didn't die, if Scott stayed with her, there was only a tiny, very tiny chance that they would die together? :-) So what's your point?

I doubt that they would move Scott with Emma if jean was alive, that is why she was killed and kept dead.

i don't care if they would stay together, it would be fair if the two died? completely.