Jean Grey: Phoenix/Marvel Girl Appreciation 2020

[MechaJeanix]

Also I do want to note that you guys were arguing that Morrison didn't say Jean was being a bad wife, but you posted quotes where he says Jean was not as emotionally in touch as Emma, that Jean kept Scott from growing, and that she was not being his wife anymore.

I like the Morrison run, and I like his Jean, but Grey absolutely was made to be the fall guy for the problems, in the writer's own published thoughts about the story and certainly in how the story concluded.

That's why it's such a heinous sexist crime to pretend that none of that happened just because of some anti-female rule that Jean's purity must be preserved for Cyclops as proof of his manhood.

If you read my posts I acknowledge what Morrison said in the interview. I quoted it before that other guy did. However, despite what Morrison said his own books had the opposite as it was Scott who was withdrawn and witheld physical and emotional intimacy. This was said in multiple books. His vow of celibacy was acknowledged in more than one book (for example the New X-men annual and in issue Jean and Emma fight).

You can go by what he said or we can actually go by you know the actual source material.

For those who tire of the Morrison talk, he is one of the definitive Jean Grey writers so all I have to say is tough luck. We will continue to celebrate the Morrison run and his version of Jean in this thread like we have always done.

[MechaJeanix]

I agree, Jean Grey was amazing during this run.

Also, there is something very interesting about this run. It was also about "in" versus "out". And "new" versus "old". Sublime was an allegory of what the editors were.
- Mutants were writers, artists : creating, embracing new ideas. Murants were evolution.
- Sublime was that sentient bacteria who couldn't stand Mutants. Meaning, he was a metaphor for the editors who are stuck in the past (like some readers) and don't want new things.

When Jean died on asteroid M, she came back as Phoenix. Yet she said "I don't know how long they will let me stay". That "they" - I think - was also a subliminal message for us, readers. Oh, you see : Sublime. Subliminal...

Grant Morrison's run was very clever.

Yes, I didn't even get into the Sublime stuff or the commentary about mutant aggression - playing on the trope of mutants constantly fighting each other. I mean even the 'good guys' usually fight each other when they first meet or when teams first interact with each other. Claremont and other writers loved to have fights.

I also loved when Jean fought Emma she told her she wasn't going to shoot psychic lightening bolts at her this time. Morrison used telepathy so well. Writers who use telepaths as just shooting blasts are lazy. Morrison used Xavier, Jean, Emma, Quire, and the cuckoos - so many telepaths and yet they were all distinct and it didn't feel like overkill. That takes talent right there.

[spirit2011]

If someone is saying that you aren't being a wife to your husband anymore, that literally means you aren't being a good wife or any wife at all. So Morrison didn't need to explicitly say "bad wife" to describe Jean. It's amazing how Morrison defenders and apologists here will spin anything when the implication is staring them right in the face.

100% agree with you on everything you said.

There isn't any other interpretation on it, it is very clear on what he wrote. Every writer that followed him got the essence of it.
Things like this bother me a lot because writers, specially Morrison are rarely called on the sexism in their writing.

I think that big name writers are really hard to discuss because it becomes a bit worshipping. Still hard to criticize Hickman on this forum.
Also there is the factor of nostalgia

To conclude, morrison run could have been good if a editor said no to a lot of things, if he actually developped Jean instead of trashing her to make Scott and Emma look cool.

Tired of this Morrison talk. It's clear some people would rather be in the Scott or Emma threads so not sure why they are polluting this thread.

Anyway stan Jean with an unproblematic angel who has loved her from the beginning.

The most unrealistic thing is that Jean wasn't into him at all. He dropped his girlfriend thinking he had a chance with Jean hahaha poor rich guy

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

Also the sun exploded as she finished. Girl is everything.

If someone is saying that you aren't being a wife to your husband anymore, that literally means you aren't being a good wife or any wife at all. So Morrison didn't need to explicitly say "bad wife" to describe Jean. It's amazing how Morrison defenders and apologists here will spin anything when the implication is staring them right in the face.

100% agree with you on everything you said.

I want to clarify that I am absolutely pro Morrison, besides him killing Jean so she couldn't move on.

[MechaJeanix]

While I'm at it let me again say Morrison can say whatever in an in interview and I have another good example to this point. Exodus Cloak (a user here) used to argue that Emma bested Jean in the silent issue because in a Wizard interview Morrison said Emma humiliated Jean or something to that effect. He used to post the scan to try to prove a point that was easily debunked by the New X-men issue itself.

In the issue Jean did all the heavy lifting and Morrison's own script shows that Emma wasn't powerful enough to go further in Xavier's mind. In the issue Jean is shown to be powerful and in the script Morrison likens Jean to a 'rockstar'. Emma did stick her tongue out at Jean when Jean fell into the water and had looked toward Emma for help, but that was it. Jean emerged from the water and did what had to be done.

At the end of the issue Jean sarcastically thanks Emma for the help (Emma wasn't any help).

So yes a writer can say whatever or mischaracterize his own work but it doesn't change the source material. We go by what is written in the stories so it doesn't matter if Morrison blamed Jean's transformation on the marriage problems when in the book they were having issues before she even manifested the Phoenix. And the marriage issues were said to be from Scott and his issues. Period. I don't know how I can make this any clearer. It all seems so simple. I mean read the books for yourself. I'm sure Jean's transformation didnt help but at that point Scott and Jean were doing their own thing (one disaster after another, Jean going to Hong Kong, after the fight with Emma Scott bolts, and they only meet up again when Jean is killed by Xorneto).

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

If you read my posts I acknowledge what Morrison said in the interview. I quoted it before that other guy did. However, despite what Morrison said his own books had the opposite as it was Scott who was withdrawn and witheld physical and emotional intimacy. This was said in multiple books. His vow of celibacy was acknowledged in more than one book (for example the New X-men annual and in issue Jean and Emma fight).

You can go by what he said or we can actually go by you know the actual source material.

For those who tire of the Morrison talk, he is one of the definitive Jean Grey writers so all I have to say is tough luck. We will continue to celebrate the Morrison run and his version of Jean in this thread like we have always done.

I'm going by what he said and wrote. He had Jean acknowledge that she was the problem with her dying breath, then gave Cyclops new life with someone more willing to dig into his mind rather than trying to force him to talk like an adult. Also, she was unceremoniously put in the dirt because ultimately the story was about getting the author a new girlfriend, even if there was other stuff in the series that was great and more tasteful.

We should never stop talking about the Morrison run. What do people want to discuss? That time she raised Cyclops' outside kid in the future? Onslaught? Tentacle arms? That lame black and red Phoenix variant? Zzzzzzzz


The best stuff is the juicy stuff. Gimme X-Factor and Morrison discussion on any day that ends in Y.

[spirit2011]

Also the sun exploded as she finished. Girl is everything.

Say that to the brocolli people that were grilled because of the orgasm

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

Say that to the brocolli people that were grilled because of the orgasm

A worthy cost for the thrill of a billion lifetimes.

[MechaJeanix]

I'm going by what he said and wrote. He had Jean acknowledge that she was the problem with her dying breath, then gave Cyclops new life with someone more willing to dig into his mind rather than trying to force him to talk like an adult. Also, she was unceremoniously put in the dirt because ultimately the story was about getting the author a new girlfriend, even if there was other stuff in the series that was great and more tasteful.

We should never stop talking about the Morrison run. What do people want to discuss? That time she raised Cyclops' outside kid in the future? Onslaught? Tentacle arms? That lame black and red Phoenix variant? Zzzzzzzz


The best stuff is the juicy stuff. Gimme X-Factor and Morrison discussion on any day that ends in Y.

I get it.

I do understand being unhappy about Jean dying or even being unhappy with the Scott/Emma pairing (not directed at you but for those that are upset) but I just wish those upset about it would acknowledge the run was more than those things. Sure Jean died and that sucks, but at least she had a story.

Like some others here I love aspects of 90's Jean but she didn't have her own story. I love X-factor Jean but again she didn't always have her own story. She was too tied with Cyclops. In Morrison's run she had a long running subplot. She had a cosmic destiny. She was part of something greater than being an X-man or Scott's wife, and that was a good thing (especially considering the retcon that attempted to take her big stories away - Morrison gave her a new Phoenix saga and in my mind eclipsed the original-which is probably a controversial opinion that many probably do not share).

The Morrison run had energy and it was full of clever dialogue and writing. I don't care that someone claims that I am basically worshiping Morrison. I don't. I don't know much about Morrison the person. I just love his X-men run. It is that simple. I also loved his All Star Superman. I haven't read all of his works. I've read some of his Animal Man. Mostly I'm an X-fan and I just read other comics on occasion.

[spirit2011]

I'm going by what he said and wrote. He had Jean acknowledge that she was the problem with her dying breath, then gave Cyclops new life with someone more willing to dig into his mind rather than trying to force him to talk like an adult. Also, she was unceremoniously put in the dirt because ultimately the story was about getting the author a new girlfriend, even if there was other stuff in the series that was great and more tasteful.

We should never stop talking about the Morrison run. What do people want to discuss? That time she raised Cyclops' outside kid in the future? Onslaught? Tentacle arms? That lame black and red Phoenix variant? Zzzzzzzz


The best stuff is the juicy stuff. Gimme X-Factor and Morrison discussion on any day that ends in Y.

He himself said that and the whole narrative just help what Morrison said. If he thought that Scott was the problem of the marriage, Scott would have been killed and Jean would had move on with

[whitecrown]

The most unrealistic thing is that Jean wasn't into him at all. He dropped his girlfriend thinking he had a chance with Jean hahaha poor rich guy

IKR, someone should have told Teen Jean to dump Scott and stick to Warren. I didn't understand why Teen Warren didn't have any feelings for Teen Jean when they came to their future since he wouldn't get over her until X-Men 32 and even then, clearly there were residual feelings left. A Warren/Jean pairing would have made way more sense than Hank/Jean. I never understood that pairing in X-Men Forever either.

[whitecrown]

Also the sun exploded as she finished. Girl is everything.



I want to clarify that I am absolutely pro Morrison, besides him killing Jean so she couldn't move on.

That's fine, I was never a big fan of his run besides introducing Fantomex (who I only liked when Rick Remender took over him) and his portrayal of Jean. I did like his version of Jean but like I've said before, it doesn't work for me in the long run considering everything he built her up to be only to kill her off for the fake blonde. Had Morrison never come around, whether the X-Men were more interesting or not, Jean wouldn't be dead and a fake blonde wouldn't have slept her way to the X-Men's leadership for a decade. Very disgraceful period for all the X-Women who were thrown aside because the writers didn't find them as sexually explicit so not worth keeping around.

[Veitha]

That quote doesn't read like him saying she was a bad wife, it's him saying that they were drifting apart. She was becoming godlike and they weren't emotionally connected anymore. He didn't say she was bad.

[Keyotheseasons]

Bryce Dallas Howard as Jean.

[whitecrown]

I couldn't tell if that was Bryce or Jessica Chastain at first.