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  1. #6466
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post
    I don't think anything about the narrative has told us that though, it's pure conjecture of fans' thinking that Jean has to be subservient to Cyclops if they're together which isn't and never really has been the truth. It's a really sexist take informed by... practically nothing that we've seen in the entire era.

    It's more likely that Jean and Scott came to this decision either together as a couple because that's how being partnered with someone works, or they individually came to the same decision. When Erik addresses Jean and Scott about if they've found anyone for their team Scott's the one who answers the question but it's drawn to very explicitly show that he's addressing them both; they both explain that they're going to be putting it to a vote, and before that it's Jean who explains what's important about the X-Men and why they've made that decision. And in the past, Scott's been the one more often shown as a homemaker, making lunches and stuff like that. Not Jean. One issue of her asking her son to set the table and people think that she's just a housewife or something now. No. I'm tired of that.

    I also think that it's really funny that people seem to think that just because a character is in a relationship that they inherently have to be worse or subservient or lesser either in general or to / with their partners. That's not how a relationship works and I think that Hickman is aware of that. He spent his entire Fantastic Four run building up Sue, and while he hasn't focused overly much on many female characters yet I'm still willing to give him the benefit of the doubt with Jean. She's not weaker or lesser for being in a relationship and making decisions with her partner and she hasn't been shown to be subservient to him.

    I understand that a lot of you don't like Jott as a relationship for reasons that I'm not going to invalidate just because I feel differently. But this narrative that Jean is a worse character because of it or that Hickman hates her or that all she is, is a housewife or a telephone or what the hell ever has to stop. Frankly, the more the fans push that narrative the more likely it is to become true within the books themselves.
    It's already true in the books themselves lol. Trust that if I had any bearing on the books, there would be no question that Jean is a capable and willful superhero in and of herself. That question is there about Jean at present and will probably continue to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rang10 View Post
    This is totally a downgrade from X-men Red. I had lots of stigma with Jean before it and the book won me. A lots of people also started to like Jean with the red book.
    Scott dictate some random rules and she follow it. If this era is serious about developing Jean, Hickman would do a gold/blue with Jean leading her own team on a Uncanny spin-off
    This era is not serious about developing Jean Grey and there was never any indication that this era was about that.

    Actually, the point of the Marvel Girl costume is to show that she is not the leader from X-Men Red. She is not the Phoenix.

    She is Mom and she has Omega cell phone service.
    Last edited by Kitty&Piotr<3; 12-31-2020 at 12:34 PM.

  2. #6467
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    By beefcakeboss
    Last edited by Kitty&Piotr<3; 12-31-2020 at 12:41 PM.

  3. #6468
    hate cant reach you here Harpsikord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post
    It's already true in the books themselves lol. Trust that if I had any bearing on the books, there would be no question that Jean is a capable and willful superhero in and of herself. That question is there about Jean at present and will probably continue to be.
    So, we're reading completely different books then? Because you sure haven't read the same issues of X-Force and X-Men that I have. Especially not X-Force.
    "We come into this world alone and we leave the same way. The time we spent in between - time spent alive, sharing, learning together... is all that makes life worth living." - Jean Grey

  4. #6469
    Mighty Member superjosh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rang10 View Post
    Hickman is smart, he discovered that he doesn't need to write for Jean if he puts her and Scott together.

    not different from Tini, that gave Betsy the Captain Britain mantle to omesate for a lack of her own story arc
    There are a lot of things to be critical about Hickman, but his creative mind isn't one of them. He doesn't need to saddle Jean with Scott as a way to not write her. If he didn't want to write her he'd just not write her.

    I also don't think Tini made Betsy Captain Britain to just kind of be like, oh that's sufficient for her. I just think Tini is a terrible writer who can't manage a full cast.

  5. #6470
    Astonishing Member Thirteen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post

    Actually, the point of the Marvel Girl costume is to show that she is not the leader from X-Men Red. She is not the Phoenix.
    Show your proof. ANY support for that argument? I still can't see it, please help.
    She's again visually shown as an equal to Charles, Magnus, and Summers here via composition... Or did someone say that was a creative decision in an interview I haven't seen?
    She dissents, she participates in the conversation, she not lesser than any of the other LEADERS in the conversation.
    Last edited by Thirteen; 12-31-2020 at 01:16 PM.

  6. #6471
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post
    So, we're reading completely different books then? Because you sure haven't read the same issues of X-Force and X-Men that I have. Especially not X-Force.

    Ben Percy doesn't lead the line and, unfortunately, Jean Grey isn't going to stay in his book. There is definitely a difference in how she is handled under Percy vs...other writers...and that has been enjoyable.

  7. #6472
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post
    I don't think anything about the narrative has told us that though, it's pure conjecture of fans' thinking that Jean has to be subservient to Cyclops if they're together which isn't and never really has been the truth. It's a really sexist take informed by... practically nothing that we've seen in the entire era.

    It's more likely that Jean and Scott came to this decision either together as a couple because that's how being partnered with someone works, or they individually came to the same decision. When Erik addresses Jean and Scott about if they've found anyone for their team Scott's the one who answers the question but it's drawn to very explicitly show that he's addressing them both; they both explain that they're going to be putting it to a vote, and before that it's Jean who explains what's important about the X-Men and why they've made that decision. And in the past, Scott's been the one more often shown as a homemaker, making lunches and stuff like that. Not Jean. One issue of her asking her son to set the table and people think that she's just a housewife or something now. No. I'm tired of that.

    I also think that it's really funny that people seem to think that just because a character is in a relationship that they inherently have to be worse or subservient or lesser either in general or to / with their partners. That's not how a relationship works and I think that Hickman is aware of that. He spent his entire Fantastic Four run building up Sue, and while he hasn't focused overly much on many female characters yet I'm still willing to give him the benefit of the doubt with Jean. She's not weaker or lesser for being in a relationship and making decisions with her partner and she hasn't been shown to be subservient to him.

    I understand that a lot of you don't like Jott as a relationship for reasons that I'm not going to invalidate just because I feel differently. But this narrative that Jean is a worse character because of it or that Hickman hates her or that all she is, is a housewife or a telephone or what the hell ever has to stop. Frankly, the more the fans push that narrative the more likely it is to become true within the books themselves.
    My sentiments exactly. It's why I roll my eyes every time people try to paint Jean in this era as weak, ineffectual, Scott's girlfriend, just a housewife, and a background character with no real agency.

  8. #6473
    BANNED Rang10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post
    This era is not serious about developing Jean Grey and there was never any indication that this era was about that.

    Actually, the point of the Marvel Girl costume is to show that she is not the leader from X-Men Red. She is not the Phoenix.

    She is Mom and she has Omega cell phone service.
    I already know Hickman from others stories and I knew this could happen.It doesn't make this less dissapointing. His women are very dissapointing, at least on Avengers they had solos so it wasn't a big loss.

    I know marvel is doing some YA books starring x-men, they just announced a Rogue book. I think a Jean one coud really be good, specially that it isn't in continuity so writer coud explore it. I hope they do more focusing on women like Storm too, some other minorities.

  9. #6474
    Incredible Member rhaenylis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rang10 View Post
    I already know Hickman from others stories and I knew this could happen.It doesn't make this less dissapointing. His women are very dissapointing, at least on Avengers they had solos so it wasn't a big loss.

    I know marvel is doing some YA books starring x-men, they just announced a Rogue book. I think a Jean one coud really be good, specially that it isn't in continuity so writer coud explore it. I hope they do more focusing on women like Storm too, some other minorities.
    Rogue's book will be the second novel in the MARVEL HEROINES line
    The first one focused on Domino
    I hope that a novel about Jean was also considered

  10. #6475
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rang10 View Post
    I already know Hickman from others stories and I knew this could happen.It doesn't make this less dissapointing. His women are very dissapointing, at least on Avengers they had solos so it wasn't a big loss.

    I know marvel is doing some YA books starring x-men, they just announced a Rogue book. I think a Jean one coud really be good, specially that it isn't in continuity so writer coud explore it. I hope they do more focusing on women like Storm too, some other minorities.
    Someone in here touted his Sue Storm lol. Was that not good?

    All I can really say is if people think Hickman's Jean is good, they are in luck because we are just going to get more of the same.

  11. #6476
    Mighty Member seccruz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post


    By beefcakeboss
    So gorge! He killed it.
    For all your Rogue needs, give us a visit!
    https://www.facebook.com/BringBackBrawlinRogueSugah

  12. #6477
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post
    Someone in here touted his Sue Storm lol. Was that not good?

    All I can really say is if people think Hickman's Jean is good, they are in luck because we are just going to get more of the same.
    Sue was ok. But the main story was about father/kids, that is the base.

    I think Jean is unremarkable, she is there but lacks a sparkle. there was some cringe moments that doesn't help.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaenylis View Post
    Rogue's book will be the second novel in the MARVEL HEROINES line
    The first one focused on Domino
    I hope that a novel about Jean was also considered
    Now i'm remember the Domino book. I really hope there will be a Jean one and it will be good. Rogue got a good writer.
    I kinda of like graphic novels better but prose will do
    Last edited by Rang10; 12-31-2020 at 04:28 PM.

  13. #6478
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    For those saying Jean has been reverted to a wallpaper character/love interest/housewife can you give any examples of Hickman (and others) writing Jean in such a way during this era?

  14. #6479
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post


    By beefcakeboss
    Nice... But, I hate the logo stamp -- I'll have to Photoshop that out later

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